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Post by Firefox on Mar 20, 2013 18:58:40 GMT
So what do you think? Beer duty cut and fuel duty on hold - that makes a change! Low threshold income tax - welcome. National debt share increase as % of GDP worrying. Investment in shale gas (fracking) misplaced
FUEL, ALCOHOL AND CIGARETTES
September's 3p fuel duty rise scrapped
April's 3p rise in beer duty scrapped. Instead, beer duty to be cut by 1p
Annual inflation +2% rise in beer duty to be ended but "duty escalator" to remain in place for wine, cider and spirits
Cigarette duties unchanged - continuing to rise by inflation +2%
INCOME TAX
Limit at which people start paying tax to be raised to £10,000 in 2014 - a year earlier than planned
HOUSING
Shared equity schemes extended, with interest-free loans for homebuyers up to 20% of value of new-build properties
Bank guarantees to underpin £130bn of new mortgage lending for three years from 2014
STATE OF THE ECONOMY
Growth forecast for 2013 halved to 0.6% from 1.2% in December
Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) watchdog predicts UK will escape recession this year
Growth predicted to be 1.8% in 2014; 2.3% in 2015; 2.7% in 2016 and 2.8% in 2017. BORROWING
The OBR predicts borrowing of £121bn this year, the same as last year, and £120bn for 2014-5
George Osborne says borrowing as a share of GDP will fall from 7.4% in 2013-14 to 5% in 2015-16
Debt as a share of GDP to increase from 75.9% this year to 85.6% in 2016-17
SPENDING AND PAY
Most government departments to see budgets cut by 1% in each of next two years
Schools and NHS will be protected
£11.5bn in further cuts earmarked in 2015-16 Spending Review, up from £10bn
1% cap on public sector pay extended to 2015-16 and limits on "progression" pay rises in the sector
Military to be exempt from "progression" pay limits.
Proceeds of Libor banking fines to be given to good military causes, including Combat Stress charity JOBS
600,000 more jobs expected this year than at same time last year
Claimant count to fall by 60,000
TRANSPORT AND INFRASTRUCTURE
An extra £15bn for new road, rail and construction projects by 2020, starting with £3bn in 2015-16
HELP FOR BUSINESS
Corporation tax to be cut by 1% to 20% in 2015
New employment allowance to cut National Insurance bills cut by £2,000 for every firm
450,000 small firms will pay no employer National Insurance
Government procurement from small firms to rise fivefold
Tax relief for investment in social enterprises
Stamp duty axed on shares traded on growth markets like Aim.
Tax avoidance and evasion measures, including agreements with Isle of Man, Guernsey and Jersey, aimed at recouping £3bn in unpaid taxes
ENERGY AND THE ENVIRONMENT
Tax incentives for ultra low-emission cars
Pottery industry in Midlands to be exempt from climate change levy
Tax allowances for investment in shale gas
INFLATION
2% Bank of England inflation target to stay in place
Bank remit to be changed to focus on growth as well as inflation
PENSIONERS
Single flat-rate pension of £144 a week brought forward a year to 2016
Cap on social care costs confirmed
FAMILIES
20% tax relief on childcare up to £6,000 per child from 2015
£5,000 payments for those who lost money on Equitable Life policies bought before 1992. Extra money for those on low incomes
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Post by kangooroo on Mar 20, 2013 23:14:24 GMT
Neutral for me, I neither gain nor lose so much as 1p. I don't drink or smoke, have no kids and am too young for a pension so it doesn't affect me at all.
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Post by lotusanne on Mar 21, 2013 0:00:49 GMT
Not sure - just watched newsnight review about it all and there are a lot of strange sneaky bits, eg to do with the bank of Englands new powers to ignore inflations, but couched in tersm that even Jeremy Paxman didnt understand! And theres increase in income tax threhold but also increase in NI contributions so how will that balance out. Glad to hear about schemes to helppeople afford to byt homes though - althought the new home plan now available to everyone not just first time buyers only applies to new builds costing over £500,000!! And at the same time as everyone is discussing the budget one of the big banks has just awarded millions and millioms in share options to its fat cats... apparently total coincidence that it was announced today! I just caught something on the radion news about it and can't even find it in a google search. Ermm - wasn't it the bankers that got us in this mess in the first place ? How can they dare to make and take these massive payouts?? Beats me!!
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Post by Is it spring yet, dormouse? on Mar 21, 2013 8:21:33 GMT
Spot on, Lotusanne!
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Post by bopper on Mar 21, 2013 11:13:05 GMT
Although I have voted 'not bad' I have to say that all the good bits (except the changes to beer prices) are very much like the words of a bad debit er "I will pay you next week". Why are all the benefits starting 2014 - 15 -16 17? By the time we get to the next election, I bet we don't get many of these things, but we will be promised implementation AFTER the election.
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Post by Pollik on Mar 21, 2013 12:56:08 GMT
This is an area in which I am quite active, following groups like Occupy London and Positive Money. I have spent the past decade researching other perspectives, models and rationales and before that, I was 22 years in banking before taking voluntary redundancy as an Assistant Manager.
I could talk for an hour on it without notes and without preparation.
One of the things that strikes me, is that not even the tory faithful newspapers are behind Osborne. In fact, it is quite hard to find anyone supporting the government's austerity measures, not even the IMF. 2013 is going to be a year of action – protests are planned starting on the 4 May (from memory), a People's Assembly is booked at Westminster for 22 June supported by some very qualified economists.
The system that is in place at the moment is just plain wrong, in my view and that of others, from just about every angle, except for the 1%. There are other ways – the Icelandic solution (google it) looks workable. We are in the worst depression for 90 years and there seems to be no will at all to change things. If things don't change, then we are fu screwed.
I don't want to litter this thread with stuff that doesn't really belong on a motorhoming forum, but if anyone wants a few links, including video documentaries, PM me.
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Post by Firefox on Mar 21, 2013 14:41:18 GMT
Litter the thread, feel free. It's for discussion!
I accept the budget is always somewhat of a stitch up, and there is hidden stuff and headline stuff. My comments were made in the context of what is possible with what we have, not what could be if we reform the system.
Much of the current political system is about maintaining the status quo. In my view it needs a huge shake up with proportional voting allowing smaller interest groups to gain a representational foothold, and an end to the politics of 2 or 3 main parties all of whom have large sympathies and interests with the top executives and the establishment.
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Post by robmac on Mar 21, 2013 16:18:37 GMT
I find it quite patronising that the chancellor has taken 1p off the duty on a pint of beer, like he was doing us a real favour and being 'one of the lads'. Somehow I can't see my local reducing a pint of bitter from £3.30 to £3.29 though!
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Post by Firefox on Mar 21, 2013 16:40:50 GMT
I guess it's no more than a gesture, but still preferable to it going up on top of the level of inflation yet again. £1.30 a pint - is that for real?! It takes me back to Uni days
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Post by Pollik on Mar 21, 2013 17:22:00 GMT
Much of the current political system is about maintaining the status quo. In my view it needs a huge shake up with proportional voting allowing smaller interest groups to gain a representational foothold, and an end to the politics of 2 or 3 main parties all of whom have large sympathies and interests with the top executives and the establishment. The demise of a proper democracy was started by Tony Blair and now we even have Labour abstaining while the Coalition brings in retro active law to prevent Workfare victims claiming compensation. Where is our Opposition party?? The government is in thrall to to bankers and corporates and really not listening to what we, the plebs, think. It started with Thatcher and deregulation of the Banks. As consequence, and since then, banks have been printing money electronically. Now, only about 3% of all money in circulation is in paper form. The other 97% exists only in computers...and created mainly by private banks. There used to be a time when private banks were allowed to print their own banknotes, but this caused a number of problems and was outlawed in 1844. But no law prevents them printing electronic money today. And, er, we have some problems, as you may have noticed. I can't recommend Positive Money too highly...http://www.positivemoney.org/consequences/debt/. That is where this 3 minute video comes from. There are many other videos, too, if you want to learn more. There are some videos out there that are over 2 hours long and still don't give the full picture. If you can manage three minutes, though...it is an excellent first look.
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Post by Pollik on Mar 21, 2013 17:36:22 GMT
The other thing to remember is that money doesn't have any intrinsic value. None at all. A mental exercise for you. Imagine you wake up tomorrow morning and find that all money, everywhere, has disappeared overnight. Your purse or wallet is empty. Nothing in your bank account. Nothing in your mortgage, loan or credit card account either. All the money has gone. Oh noes!! What will we do??? Stop a second. The money has gone, but...the food is still in the supermarkets, farms still exist, coal deposits remain stubbornly under the ground, your van is still outside....everything else is still there. Only the money has disappeared. The things we really need to live and survive are still there. So...how much do we REALLY need it? When the end of the earth comes and there is no food, the Rothchilds can't eat their billions of dollars. When someone stockpiles more tins of baked beans than he can ever use, we call them crazy. Yet when a man stockpile more money than he can ever use, we think he is smart. Go figure. Who needs money? "The term and meaning of a Resource Based Economy was originated by Jacque Fresco. It is a holistic socio-economic system in which all goods and services are available without the use of money, credits, barter or any other system of debt or servitude. All resources become the common heritage of all of the inhabitants, not just a select few" www.thevenusproject.com/en/the-venus-project/resource-based-economy
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Post by Firefox on Mar 21, 2013 18:11:16 GMT
We don't need it at all, if everybody could accept what other people had to offer, and we all traded our skills and bartered our wares.
On a local level it would work very well. But say if a disabled person needed a carer and they didn't have any friends or family. The state could provide one, but they would have to say to the carer, look after this person, and we will give you some food or clothes in return. But where would they get the food? They would need to levy a tax of food from able bodied people who could produce food. What about if the food perishes in between being taxed and handed out. It all gets complicated. Maybe they would give them a jewel or gold to exchange food to get over that problem, and currency starts up again.
So I could see a local bartering and trading economy could work, but the national government, and the welfare state, education systems, and health-care we have now would struggle.
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Post by Pollik on Mar 21, 2013 19:37:42 GMT
In theory, we don't need money or bartering at all. It is only the nature of the beast called "Man" that determines otherwise. We could just carry on doing everything we do now if money vanished.
For something that we use every day, money is not understood by the overwhelming majority of people. It is a wholly separate thing from value or wealth.
The £5 note is an IOU.
You have two chicken that I would like to have. I offer to trade you my goat for them. You don't the want the goat, perhaps you are allergic to them. So, instead I give you an IOU for one goat.
Off you go to see some other peasant who has got some hay that you need. In exchange for one bale of hay, you offer him the IOU you got from me.
At this point, I possess two chickens and goat. You have a useful bale of hay instead of two chicken. The other peasant just has the IOU of 1 goat. He accepted the IOU because he knows I have a goat and trusts me to honour the IOU. If he didn't trust me, the IOU wouldn't be worth the parchment it was written on, for example if I road out of town with the goat.
The IOU is the same, in principle, as a £5 note.
Now, supposing that, instead of trading the IOU for the hay, you made 100 copies of the IOU (which is what banks do when they create money. You now have 101 IOUs for 101 goats...you're rich, RICH!!! You are so excited that you go off and trade them for a horse and cart, a small herd of cows and a pint of beer...and you are pleased with your day's work. Meanwhile I have had 101 people coming to me expecting me to give them a goat which I don't have. And they are a bit pissed off with that.
Welcome to the monetary system where our private banks are printing electronic money.
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Post by robmac on Mar 21, 2013 19:44:29 GMT
I guess it's no more than a gesture, but still preferable to it going up on top of the level of inflation yet again. £1.30 a pint - is that for real?! It takes me back to Uni days Duly edited!
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Post by Firefox on Mar 21, 2013 19:58:16 GMT
Private banks don't just print money though. The physical money supply is controlled by the government. And if they print more than they can honour like some Govs have done, they become like you and your goat IOU's. The money becomes worthless, 3000% inflation and all the rest of it.
As for private banks generating electronic wealth by deception, selling on bad debt and worthless bonds, that too leads to a collapse of the system as suddenly all the bonds and equities become worthless. It's no more than a pyramid scam theft as those at the top escape with the goods of everyone below them.
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Post by n brown on Mar 21, 2013 20:06:01 GMT
living in the past is so much cheaper isn't it mate? I live in 1970 when a pint was 11pence. £1 30p sounds a bit dear
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Post by Pollik on Mar 21, 2013 20:59:27 GMT
Private banks don't just print money though. The physical money supply is controlled by the government. And if they print more than they can honour like some Govs have done, they become like you and your goat IOU's. The money becomes worthless, 3000% inflation and all the rest of it. As for private banks generating electronic wealth by deception, selling on bad debt and worthless bonds, that too leads to a collapse of the system as suddenly all the bonds and equities become worthless. It's no more than a pyramid scam theft as those at the top escape with the goods of everyone below them. Physical money or electronic money - it is the same. It is all money in circulation and spent. Did you watch the 3 minute video I linked above?
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Post by Firefox on Mar 21, 2013 21:21:30 GMT
Yes saw the vid. I didn't agree with the conclusions about a public institution creating money will solve debt problems. And I didn't agree with the statement that private banks create money in ordinary loan situations. The money supply and the amounts banks can lend is controlled by the federal reserve in the US and the Bank of England in the UK, nominally both Gov/public institutions.
I think one of the primary things which creates debt is pointless war.
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Post by Firefox on Mar 21, 2013 21:24:07 GMT
living in the past is so much cheaper isn't it mate? I live in 1970 when a pint was 11pence. £1 30p sounds a bit dear The cheapest I remember was about £1.20 a pint and that was about 1980. Did it really go up from 11p to £1.20 in ten years? The 70's have a lot to answer for!!!
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Post by Pollik on Mar 21, 2013 21:58:02 GMT
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Post by n brown on Mar 21, 2013 23:34:03 GMT
yes it really was that price. I had a job cleaning a pub for 5 bob[25p] an hour,4 hours in the morning,plus a meal. I was solo squatting a disused copshop at the time,so no rent,i'm fed.and enough dosh for 9 pints-sorted !
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Post by robmac on Mar 22, 2013 0:14:48 GMT
living in the past is so much cheaper isn't it mate? I live in 1970 when a pint was 11pence. £1 30p sounds a bit dear Cor in 1970 I wasn't even old enough to go down the Offy for a Party Four of Red Barrell!
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Post by Oldish Hippy on Mar 22, 2013 6:05:28 GMT
living in the past is so much cheaper isn't it mate? I live in 1970 when a pint was 11pence. £1 30p sounds a bit dear Cor in 1970 I wasn't even old enough to go down the Offy for a Party Four of Red Barrell! well dont think it was 1 30 as it was pre deccimalisaation wasnt it
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Post by bopper on Mar 22, 2013 12:03:28 GMT
Here is a picture taken in The White Horse pub in Quorn Leicestershire in 1983. Look at the tariff board.
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Post by Firefox on Mar 22, 2013 13:56:51 GMT
Here is a picture taken in The White Horse pub in Quorn Leicestershire in 1983. Look at the tariff board. That was when I was Uni in London. Prices were double that in London. Could maybe get a pint for £1 at at the Students Union bar.
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Post by Etienne Le Croq on Mar 22, 2013 17:06:22 GMT
I'm not much fussed about the budget,as long as I can get the van finished before the country goes bust :drive:
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Post by Rubbertramp on Mar 22, 2013 17:21:33 GMT
Here's an interesting conundrum....I remember sneaking into the pubs in Plymouth as a 15 year old and then you could get a pint of bitter for 10p.....disgusting stuff, we used to mix brown ale with it......so now, forty years later it's around £3 right? That's thirty times the price. Although I only got paid £8 a week as an apprentice, the tradesmen I worked with used to earn £40. That can reasonably be said to be an average wage at the time. Now if beer is thirty times the price now then if wages were to have kept pace ie thirty times £40 the average wage should be £1200 a week! Bread on the other hand at say £1.20 a loaf is only 10 times the price it was then. That should make the average wage £400....don't know what the average wage actually is now but that's some difference for your dough!
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Post by lotusanne on Mar 22, 2013 17:42:22 GMT
Just to return to the WBankers, has anyone heard of the Bank of Dave In Burnley? This was started by a local business man, a minibus manufacturer who found that a lot of his customers were getting into trouble when the recession hit and the banks were refusing to give loans to small businesses. So he basically set up his own bank- though wascaused endless and needless problems by the FSA on route. It works like this - people can lend money to the bank, and get 5% interest rate, businesses can borrow from the bank at a very competitive rate. Loan decisions are made from thr result of a personal interview, they do not use credit scoring. Thre are no fat cat bonuses paid and any profits go to charity. Everyone is happy, loal busineses are thriving, savers are getting good returns... and no-one is getting money creamed off to pay their bonuses. What a brilliant idea - and if one man can do it wjy on earth can't the government do exactly the same thing??
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Post by Rubbertramp on Mar 22, 2013 18:20:22 GMT
Because government and the people who run the big banks have greed and compound interest coursing through their veins....they are beyond help and they get away with it because we let them. Just read about Dave....good for him, I hope more banks like his spring up.
One good thing about Islamic law is that they aren't allowed to charge compound interest if they lend money. What you pay back is the loan plus the percentage quoted.
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Post by lotusanne on Mar 22, 2013 19:27:40 GMT
Because government and the people who run the big banks have greed and compound interest coursing through their veins....they are beyond help and they get away with it because we let them. Just read about Dave....good for him, I hope more banks like his spring up. One good thing about Islamic law is that they aren't allowed to charge compound interest if they lend money. What you pay back is the loan plus the percentage quoted. Yeah like they say, Turkeys wouldn't vote for Christmas!! Apparently this type of local banking system is used a lot in Germany and so its been proved to work Well... guess that makes one good thing about Islamic law!!
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