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Post by lotusanne on Mar 19, 2013 12:41:35 GMT
When I retire in approximataley 8 years 1 week and 1day (well when I say approximately..!!) I am hoping to be buy a more modern camper van than my current G reg transit AutoHomes so I am always keeping a look at whats on the market to see what might be available second hand in 8 years. And I just do not understand why there are so few conversions on Transits - the vast majority seem to be based on Fiats, Peugeots or Renaults none of which I am keen on. I am looking for a hi-top panel van with room for grandkids in roof, 2 singles or one double bed option downstairs, My current van is actually ideal in layout and facilities apart from being cumbersome to make up bed as a double, and although its an excellent solid conversion she is getting to be a bit of an old girl now. I recently rented a LWB brand new Trannie for removals and it was an absolute joy to drive, and very economical (current van is petrol with no power steering) and it would make a superb camper van, but so few people are donig them, yet I would have tons of choice if I wanted a Fiat/Peugeot/ Renault base vehicle. Just wondering if anyone knows why this is the case??
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Post by Firefox on Mar 19, 2013 13:09:08 GMT
Fiat Ducato, Citreon Relay, and Peugeot Boxer are all the same van with different badges. If you check out this video it shows how (especially) Fiat have got into the motorhome market by offering these special double cab vehicles with a low floor to the converters: www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRgrncUGEFQSame with Renault Master/Vauxhall Movano - same van different badges, but these vehicles are not so popular with converters. The cab floor is high compared to the loadspace (6 inches) You get a great driving position and a great van but you have to work around the floor. Both the Renault and the Fiat have a wide body enabling you to sleep across the van. The Transit and the Sprinter are not so wide and you can't get a 6ft 2" transverse bed. The Transit has a "name" and easy to get parts but it does have a reputation for more dated mechanics. It's easy to get attached to a brand like Transit or VW but you have to look closely at the loadspace dims and the mechanics. The Renault and Fiat have generous dimensions and fantastic engines. My van (Renault/vauxhall) will do 100 mph, 6 gears and 37 mpg + on a long run - it's 3.5 tonnes - and drives like a car. The Continental vans have got ahead of the Transits and the LDVs (now defunct). I'm not sure of the current Transit models - they may have improved - but try not to get bogged down in brand loyalty. Just check out the raw facts of size and performance to see what would suit your requirements and budget.
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Post by bopper on Mar 19, 2013 15:38:09 GMT
I would agree with everything written by Firefox. The Transit is now a choice of a work vehicle and doesn't lend itself to the van conversion so easily. My Renault Traffic drives like a car and has the right shape in the rear for conversion. Bullet proof engine and fairly straightforward to work on. Good parts supplies obtainable but a little more expensive than Transit parts. I would recommend the Citroen/Peugeot/Fiat Ducato to anyone considering a self build or indeed a coach built.
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Post by mr99g on Mar 19, 2013 15:44:17 GMT
Well vern has said it all . A lot of knowledge/ info there. I remember reading somewhere ,that the 'foreign' van producers, offered the converters bigger discounts, and more extras to the vehicle thrown in . I once had a Elldis coachbuilt on a new boxer about 5 years ago. The front end appealed to me at the time ( in fact it still does, I bought another Peugeot autocruise boxer PVC a couple of years later). Anyway at the time ,the Ellis was one of only six 120bhp, 6 speed, air con etc to be made by them . It was a 'entry level van' ( they call them that , I call it cheap and cheerful). Peugeot had no 100 bhp? So they sent better chassis's cabs I'm sure at lot of converters could have found their customers were delayed on back order if it was another supplier ! Years ago I would not thinking of comparing a European van next to a tranny . How times have changed !!
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Post by lotusanne on Mar 19, 2013 15:57:47 GMT
Thanks both for your replies, very interesting and useful .I think the latest Transit models got great reviews... but even less people are doing conversions on them now as their existing furniture kit profiles dont fit the new shape.Maybe I need to revisit my prejuduces about the other models, I am probably years out of date in thinking them all unreliable rust buckets that constantly need expensive new parts!! Why Bopper, is that you think the Trannies dont lend themselves to van conversion so easily? Or should i watch FFs video link first - thank you FF I will watch it btw. It can be very hard to overcome your van prejudices cant it... and for everyone you to talk that recommends one you get someone else that rubbishes it. But it is very ressuring to get good feedback like from you two, and much appreciated. I see nore hours of research on Ebay are now required!
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Post by lotusanne on Mar 19, 2013 16:01:51 GMT
Well vern has said it all . A lot of knowledge/ info there. I remember reading somewhere ,that the 'foreign' van producers, offered the converters bigger discounts, and more extras to the vehicle thrown in . I once had a Elldis coachbuilt on a new boxer about 5 years ago. The front end appealed to me at the time ( in fact it still does, I bought another Peugeot autocruise boxer PVC a couple of years later). Anyway at the time ,the Ellis was one of only six 120bhp, 6 speed, air con etc to be made by them . It was a 'entry level van' ( they call them that , I call it cheap and cheerful). Peugeot had no 100 bhp? So they sent better chassis's cabs I'm sure at lot of converters could have found their customers were delayed on back order if it was another supplier ! Years ago I would not thinking of comparing a European van next to a tranny . How times have changed !! Oh dear... another one in favour of the contineral vans!! Sniff!! Thanks for your reply Mr99g, I still want a Transit really... but I can see I am going to have to work at justifying it... or possibly change my mind! Got years to think about it yet anyone
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Post by mr99g on Mar 19, 2013 17:04:59 GMT
The good news is that these days all vans are pretty good , its not like years ago. This is proven when driving abroad and you see the European vans built on ford transits . It always fills me with a sense of pride ! However as I sit ,typing this post in my French manufactured boxer, they must be good to past that test alone !
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Post by lotusanne on Mar 19, 2013 17:24:33 GMT
And to add to my confusion, have just been chatting to local garage mechanic about this , and he reckons that these days it the Fords and the mercedes that are the rust buckets!!
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Post by Firefox on Mar 19, 2013 17:53:48 GMT
Don't forget Ford is an American company. I know they are built in the UK along with the Vauxhalls/Befords (now sadly just rebadged vehicles) but in truth all these vehicles share international parts. Nothing is really British any more I'd also beware of "reviews" because many are just advertisement features. They start from the premise that all vans/motorhomes are good, just some are slightly better than others! If you really want a Ford then go for it, especially if you are buying second hand, because the history of the vehicle and how it has been driven or maintained is more much important than a review of what it was like new 6 years ago. But do try to take some extended test drives in a variety of vehicles/vans to see how how they suit you and how the layouts suit you. You may be pleasantly surprised at how well a van fits you as compared to your original preferences before you tried them out.
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Post by lotusanne on Mar 19, 2013 21:18:18 GMT
Yeah you are right Vern, and the more I think of it the more I like the idea of the slightly wider van giving the option of a transverse bed, lots more layouts become possible. Would prob also go slightly longer... but I wont start listing all my "ideal van" layout here ! And I agree that its the actual van and the quality of the conversion thats important. Thanks for the suggestions, food for thought for me, and yes will try to get some test drives to get a better feel. Lots od resraech work for me now!!
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Post by Etienne Le Croq on Mar 19, 2013 21:34:34 GMT
Ann! My Citroen has a transit engine with a chain instead of a belt,its very economical 40 mpg can be obtained on a run.Also Citroen seem to fit more extras as standard than Fiat.The new Transits are now made in Turkey! goodluck with your choice,have a :coffee: and look at other makes.
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Post by lotusanne on Mar 19, 2013 22:28:39 GMT
Hi Elllis Boy, thats sounds interesting, did you swap over the engines or buy it like that? Thats great fuel economy... so another good option to consider. Have never really considered Citreons,but like the sound of them coming with all the extras!!, will be doing some more reading up, thank for the info
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Post by mr99g on Mar 20, 2013 6:59:41 GMT
Ann! My Citroen has a transit engine with a chain instead of a belt,its very economical 40 mpg can be obtained on a run.Also Citroen seem to fit more extras as standard than Fiat.The new Transits are now made in Turkey! goodluck with your choice,have a :coffee: and look at other makes. I knew transits were bound to be made abroad or at least in part , but turkey ! Well I never . Well on the basis that peugeots are made in France, ( which there probably not), I'm driving the nearest thing to a British van they still sell Still wouldn't it be nice if tvr from Blackpool made motorhomes .Not very durable though I suspect ,and I think they've gone out of business . ( probably resurface in marmaris no doubt lol). Ps I've got a transverse bed . They use the space availalable above and below very nicely
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Post by Etienne Le Croq on Mar 20, 2013 7:04:58 GMT
The 2.3L relays have the Ford engine fitted to them ,its the TDCI engine which is in the current Transit and also used in the Landrover Defender,also has a six speed box which is really good on long runs.The Peugeot Boxer is the same as the Citroen,but I think that Fiat use a different engine in the 2.3L Ducato.There also seems to be more Citroens than Peugeots around.
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Post by Firefox on Mar 20, 2013 7:22:50 GMT
For me ideal length of van is 5.4 to 5.7m. Parking spaces are 4.8m long so these vans will just squeeze in while giving plenty of space inside.
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Post by bopper on Mar 20, 2013 12:05:16 GMT
My reply is; Simply that the load area is larger in the continental vans. I cannot speak about the new Transit but the van market has dramatically changed over the last few years. The older Transits were bought by large fleets because Ford gave them such a large discount that it made financial sense. The old Merc diesel wouldn't pull you out of bed and the continental vans like the Renault Traffic were rust buckets, however, over the past 15 years or so, things have changed, and now the situation has been reversed. The fleet buyers realised that more capacity meant less journeys made, and more profit, the Ducato engine had been long enough in production to prove it was a very reliable unit and that it was also very economical (Europe was fast to move on engine management systems.) The build quality went up because all the resources went in to two factories and couple that with the opening of many new outlets giving discounts to fleets, the Euro van has overtaken sales. From our perspective the Motorhome builders were delighted with the standard of cab style and level of luxury usually afforded only to cars. The load weights and chassis were good building blocks and so they soon adopted and adapted them. Only with the coming of age of Mercedes have they now had some opposition, the new sprinters are said to be the very best vans to own, but they cost more. I think suffice to say that the Transit is not the van of choice today but maybe the new version will bring the company back on course as being the work horse of industry.
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Post by lotusanne on Mar 20, 2013 12:42:21 GMT
Very intersting Bopper, so the power of working together co-operatively has certainly worked for the Eurovan....cerainly makes sense, you can compare that to most of the commercial world - people are re-inventing the wheel all over the place, standards are then different and parts not interchangeable etc etc - plus all that wasted develpment time and learning not shared. Itsnot like that in the academic world actually where publishing a paper to adertise your results is seen as an achievement! The drug comaonies are one of the worst culprits - though i did hear only the other day that they are srating to look at transparency... not as easy in the commercial world though. Well, the answerto my question is becoming clearer,and more interesting than I had imagined... and even if Fords do start to get used more by motorhome builders it will be be while before I could afford the second prices - won't be able to afford new - and actually wouldnt buy new anyway - so many second hand bargains where people have dealt with the teething issues , had the devaluation and often low mileage and well looked after. I am really glad I asked the question have learned a lot, opened my mind to alternatives and quite chugffed with the idea of a slghtly wider van.!
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Post by bopper on Mar 20, 2013 15:17:17 GMT
That's what a forum like this is for lotusanne. Should you see anything you like on Ebay or in your local paper I'm sure a shout on here would get someone "In the know" willing to go along with you to look over the vehicle with you. If you are near enough to them of course.
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Post by Firefox on Mar 20, 2013 15:34:14 GMT
Correct, the big production centre for the Fiat, Peugeot, and Citroen vans is at Sevel in Italy: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SevelEven the French had to give up their production on this one!
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Post by lotusanne on Mar 20, 2013 18:01:07 GMT
That's what a forum like this is for lotusanne. Should you see anything you like on Ebay or in your local paper I'm sure a shout on here would get someone "In the know" willing to go along with you to look over the vehicle with you. If you are near enough to them of course. Thanks again Bopper and yeah, its really nice to see the good side of forums and people. This a great place to share info with like minded people. Some of my friends actually think its boring to talk about campervans!!!! Takes all sorts i suppose!! It will be a while before I can afford my next van but what I will do is broaden my research to other makes of vans - I know a lot about Ford Conversions but little else... and you wouldnt believe hw many hours I will happily put in now to resaerch the other makes.
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Post by landydriver on Mar 20, 2013 19:33:17 GMT
If this is a panel van conversion....Im sure Ive read the supporting frames inside the transit are at a strange height which makes fitting windows at a normal height difficult. Dont know about the new just out Transit though. Yes citeron vans have a ford engine but all other diesel fords have a citeron engines As do volvos...which are a ford focus in disguise. Jaguars are mondeos. Fiestas are mazdas. Landrover freelanders have lots of Ford parts...very similar to Kuga which have VW transmission. I'll stop now...most stuff these days seem to be made of a collection of parts. And yes most transits are built in Turkey...this might surprise you though...Iran, who we are told is a bad! place that we have sanctions with etc etc....we have opened Transit wiring looms and writing on the wires says...made in Iran 07 > on transits are not bad to drive. Dash mounted gear change...copied from the opposition. In fact most of it is copied!! Ford are not great inovators Everything has been done before ford jump on the wagon. Transits are expensive, not near as expensive as VW...you get a lot more van for your money with Renault/Fiat/Peugeot/Citeron. Machanical reliability...hmmm probably not much in it. Compared to the good old days they are all reliable. I fix Transits everyday....and Ive bought a Renault Master. Why? You can stand up in a medium roof and it has 120 bhp. 85/90bhp transits are a bit...crap! All that could all change before your in the market though.
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Post by lotusanne on Mar 20, 2013 23:44:26 GMT
Flippin heck!! Unbelievable!! It seems that nothing is what it seems it is! The brand new transit I rented recently was really nice to drive, loads of power, very responsive and twice as economical as mine - but then mine is 1989 2 Litre petrol. But parts are cheap, everyone says its a joy to work and and its got no complicated computerised bits to go wrong! There's such a lot to consider, obviously the base vehicle, the mpg, reliability price of parts etc etc, and then tha standard of the conversion. Although mine is so old everything works and the design is brilliant, really well thought out. But I have seen brand new vans in exhibitions wiht bits falling off them, and layouts that make you wonder if the person that designed them had ever actualy spent some time living in a van! And yes who knows what it wil; be like in 8 years, plenty of time for me to keep changing my mind!! Thanks for all the information
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Post by mr99g on Mar 21, 2013 7:53:29 GMT
Your right about the layouts and build quality lotusanne. Every van I've had (about 8) has had elements of bad design . Do these designers actually hit the road for three months before production? Mmm . Every van I've had has been tweaked by the builders each successive year. ' why don't we just wait for some feedback/complaints and then act accordingly ' , seems to be the case ! The other problem is the space/weight issue. Would you seriously dream of actually using/buying some of the products and materials used on them,in your own house . I'm not posh , but the days are long gone buying mfi units with edging strip peeling off the edges , in the sunlight. Not so in a new £43k auto cruise panel van . I know it's not a one off as every van I've had there's been a element of toy town building involved. At the end of the day there lightweight caravans with engines at the front. There has to be a bit of compromise I suppose . I haven't owner a hymer, hobby or that double barrelled name one (forgot the name) ets,but have had many high value ones . There will always be a compromise . Before anybody says build your own , I can't, I'm no good hands on , I'm a boss, so only know if you are and how quick etc . I do however have the utmost respect for those that do . I'm always lying in bed in the camper think of ways to improve and pimp my ride . Chris
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Post by lotusanne on Mar 21, 2013 11:49:26 GMT
Completely agree!! Thats why I am starting looking 8years ahead!! Apart from the fact thatI love looking at campers and weighing it all up. But have been round expensive vans and been amazed at how horrid they are in looks, materals as you say and build quality, and at the NEC l recently -ish with Firefox we literally just opened a coupleof drawers/doors that then stuck or handles fell off - and this in a van that costs as much as a small house!! As to layouts, may fave hate is poor use of the limited space, and i partcilurlry dislike the rock and roll beds that roll out so nicely but then prevent access to half the cupboards in the van, so you have to make sure you get everything out you might need before going to bed, this used to just about the only layout possible in the old vws with rear engines - but whats the excuse now?!
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Post by Firefox on Mar 21, 2013 12:03:16 GMT
The show vans take a bit of a hammering so probably are an unfair test of things like cupboard doors and hinges.
I guess you can say they should be more durable, but over a week you get a lot of meatheads poking around inside the vans many of whom are would be motorhome owners who aren't familiar with the different types of motor home fittings. Some of them will tug and force open doors without pressing the relevant catch or release to the point of breaking them. I've seen at least two people trying to force cupboard door open when they didn't press the catch. And one woman tugging away on a dummy drawer handle for a fake drawer under the sink like you get in some houses.
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Post by lotusanne on Mar 21, 2013 13:15:06 GMT
OK,I will accept some of that is the reason Vern but also poor constructions, things just glued in place, tiny screws, and those veneer edging strips that just always peel off etc etc. Yeah show vans may not be the best example - but its the same in other places, and I look at mine which as i mentioned is 1989 and made ny AutonHomes who I think eventually got taken over autosleepers, they had very similar designs, and its soo well constructed I get pleasure just looking at it ...but then I am weird like that!!
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Post by n brown on Mar 21, 2013 14:07:13 GMT
they don't call them flimsies for nothing. I think most vans try to get so much stuff in they have to make all the furniture and fittings out of fresh air to keep the weight down
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Post by Firefox on Mar 21, 2013 14:31:28 GMT
I accept some poor construction especially in the more modern vans. Basildog says his is made out egg boxes and toffee!
I don't know why weight is such a huge problem with careful planning. When I'd done mine, I took it on a weighbridge and it was 2800 kgs with full payload 75l of water 2x110Ah batteries, 2 x6kg gas, fridge, full of food, gear, clothes, diesel, beer and 2 people included. Still 500 kg to spare on top of the payload and I used 18mm Mdf and 9mm/6mm ply - it's pretty solidly built too.
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Post by n brown on Mar 21, 2013 15:08:30 GMT
ah,but were you in it when you weighed it!
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Post by Firefox on Mar 21, 2013 15:41:23 GMT
Yes me and my dad who weighs about 65 kg. I was off the ramp to start with and it was about 2715 kg and I stepped on the ramp and it was about 2800 kg
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