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Post by Lee & Linda on Mar 6, 2013 17:56:01 GMT
I'm not sure that you can use Oxford as a campsite as I don't think a scout campsite and having motorhomes there is the same thing. Andy C seemed to think we should have had an excemption cerificate and he's fairly knowledgable on these matters.
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Post by Firefox on Mar 6, 2013 18:20:54 GMT
This is what I reckoned. The scouts have exemption for their own camping activity. But our occupation of their car park is another different group using their premises which isn't the same thing.
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Post by robmac on Mar 6, 2013 19:49:42 GMT
This is what is confusing, The guide for applicants states;
For new applicant organisations, we need to satisfy ourselves that you have the relevant structure and organisation to enable you to properly supervise caravan/camping activities. This will involve writing to owners/managers of previous sites used to ask them to verify that your activities were properly managed and your organisation?s behaviour whilst on the site was appropriate
Does this mean that if say we name Greywell or Brandon, we are admitting to acting ilegally in the past because we camped without an exemption cert? I don't know if these 2 sites have licenses for camping or are CL's (if the latter they would only be able to have 5 vans on site anyway).
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Post by robmac on Mar 6, 2013 19:51:33 GMT
Oh my gawd, it doesn't like text cut and pasted from another document
Have edited previous post should be readable now!
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Post by Rubbertramp on Mar 6, 2013 21:05:15 GMT
It should be left well alone in my opinion. The sooner as you start getting "authority" involved in your activities the sooner they start to spoil them in my experience. You'll have more non-meets than meets.
As for being perceived as gypsies or travellers.....so what? If the perceiver can't come to talk to us and find out who we are....then calls the police, the police will pop over to have a chat and find that we are just a bunch of happy campers out on weekend jolly....just as happened at Stonehenge and other places. Stop worrying about what other people might think and start enjoying yerself.
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Post by robmac on Mar 6, 2013 21:08:53 GMT
It's sounding more and more to me Mark as if we don't need one unless we go on a CL and exceed their 5 van limit. But I'll wait and see what the concensus is.
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Post by wildman on Mar 7, 2013 10:02:42 GMT
you can only legally use a CL if you are a member of the club or forum that licences it, so do you all want to join the caravan club? I really am trying to help you out here and my offer of a rally field is neither here nor there, if you want meets elsewhere you can hold them legally, why rock the boat for the rest of us. Note my user name. I have wilded all of my life but for meets I have to use showgrounds or registered sites. A rally exemption certificate makes things a lot easier no one is trying to trap you into anything. As to the various proof required why not just ring them and ask for advice. They are actually helpful and want to legitimise our hobby thereby avoiding blanket bans on camping in the UK. Ask for advice, it is freely given and they are only out to help not hinder you. Zoe sorted it for ClubNomad and for Motorroamers so it cannot be as hard as you all seem to want to make it. I see an undertone of reluctance born out of fear of the unknown. when it comes down to it getting these things sorted legitimises the forum and effectively gives us a combined voice, I came up against the same reluctance on MHwild and find it really difficult to understand. You have already posted on an open forum that you have illegal meets and run away before owt is said, so you should at least be seen as trying to put that right now you know the score. I will now step back and leave you to it as I'm sure there is no more I can say unless specific questions are asked.
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Post by Firefox on Mar 7, 2013 13:07:11 GMT
I don't think it's actually illegal to use a CL/CS if you are not a member of the respective organisation. I'm a member of the CC and I have used CS's. They are glad of the business and ask no questions, a lot of them. They are taking a risk that if the club inspector happens to come round and check, they may get their licence with the respective club reviewed. It's a very minimal risk for them, but not illegal for the campsite user - there is a difference here, nobody is going to prosecute me for not being a member of the camping club and using a CS
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Post by kangooroo on Mar 7, 2013 14:35:36 GMT
I've used CLs. Some have recorded full details, home address, vehicle reg no, C&CC membership number and insisted on seeing the valid membership card whereas others have just accepted the cash, asked for help in feeding their livestock and asked no questions. I've also visited a few which have had rather more than the allowed 5 vans too.
The CLs and CSs are only available for use by members otherwise if they were available for general public use then a site licence would be required. If a Planning Officer made an inspection visit then it's the landowner who risks action being taken long after the campers have left. To say there is no risk to ourselves as campers who move on, but leave the landowner with the problem, is a little selfish.
I'm not 100% convinced either way re the exemption certificate but I'm more of a solo-wildcamper than a rally-attender. I think the decision re whether to apply depends on where rallies are going to be held. If they're in pub car parks (which isn't exactly 'wild-camping'!) then perhaps it isn't necessary. If more rural locations are going to be chosen, eg farmers' fields, National Parks then holding a certificate may open far more opportunities for more remote wild-camping with no risk to the landowner.
I suspect that if multiple vans gather in visible locations regularly for unlicenced meets, then eventually locals are going to become upset or annoyed by it but making legitimate arrangements for the use of, eg a hedged field on private land with permission, adds some legitimacy and isn't going to cause offence to anyone and is perhaps a more responsible approach.
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Post by wildman on Mar 7, 2013 16:22:20 GMT
I don't think it's actually illegal to use a CL/CS if you are not a member of the respective organisation. I'm a member of the CC and I have used CS's. They are glad of the business and ask no questions, a lot of them. They are taking a risk that if the club inspector happens to come round and check, they may get their licence with the respective club reviewed. It's a very minimal risk for them, but not illegal for the campsite user - there is a difference here, nobody is going to prosecute me for not being a member of the camping club and using a CS your correct but only sort of, whilst not illegal for you to use them it is an illegal breach of the terms of the site owners licence which would then be revoked if the CL/CS owner allows you to camp. The licence issued to allow 5 van sites is very specific about who can use that site, it is for club members only, disregard that and the 5 van exemption licence is revoked end of story, I had 5 visits last year to check everyone on site was a club member and the rules of my licence were being upheld. Pub car parks are ok for up to three vans, over that and it becomes an illegal gathering under the countyside camping and caravaning act of 19 blah blah blah. They need a campsite licence or a 5 van exemption certificate issued by a club. So you can see for many years motorhomers have got away with illegal camping at best and put the landowners livelihood at risk at worse. In short there are only two places to hold a meet of more than three vans, at a caravan/motorhome show where the organisers hold a blanket event camping licence, or a local authority licenced caravan site (that is not a 5 van site but a full unrestricted one. Other than that the only legal way for all concerned is for clubs to take out a rally exemption certificate and you can argue until you are blue in the face but it will not change that fact. If you all want to be solo wild campers living on your wits why do you need a forum, whats the point of bringing people together, then not bringing them physically together, it makes no sense. Why do I rant on about it well the answer is simple over the years our right to camp have meets and Assemblies have been curtailed because so many people ignore the rules, more and more places are put beyond use. I bought a motorhome to travel freely and now find legislation every whichway all brought about by inconsiderate camping. We are branded freeloaders and gypos by everyone in sight and it is really beginning to get me and others down. To preserve our way of life for future generations we must take responsibility for our actions and if that means getting a rally exemption certificate to show we are responsible campers then so be it there has been more written in this thread than ever needed to appear on the application and more time spent on it as well but it is something every responsible camping organisation should have end of story.
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Post by Firefox on Mar 7, 2013 17:15:00 GMT
We're having a vote on whether it's worth us getting an exemption certificate. We'll let you know what the decision is. Bear in mind that Zoe/Motoromers/Nomads/Wild Camping 4MH/Phil etc have funds, because they tap their members for cash at meets or via the websites (membership pay pal etc). We don't intend to tap our members for anything, so slightly different circumstances for us. If that means we can't go to some places so be it, but even if we didn't have a certificate, 5 of us could still gather on your site so it's not all bad
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Post by wildman on Mar 8, 2013 10:35:24 GMT
I seem to be banging my head against a brick wall here. My site from Easter will be licenced by Motorhomefun, only their members can use the site so if 5 of you turn up for a meet then you have to become members, you can become read only members for free and I can only take up to 5 vans so if 5 turn up and 4 others are already here then you have a problem. Some other sites who "have funds" gather them by charging £1 a time per rally, and whilst I know there are a few who will never pay anything, those people would not attend a rally when I charge £5 per night, staying on the CL is £7 per night. The latest news I have of motor roamers is that they may well be closing following in the footsteps of clubnomad. MH-W also looking shakey with very few posts, it seems forums are springing up and closing down at a rate of knots. It takes a certain amount of experience, enthusiasm, technical skill and business acumen to establish and drive onward a good site. All the while everyone expects everything for nothing and that includes time, posts and offering help then the law of natural selection will rule and the forum will fail, as a self confessed forum junkie I have seen it all too often. whilst I'm sure there are members out there who would love to attend a decent sized rally once a year and put faces to names the probably are those who sit back and leave the running to everyone else. So where is this poll? is it setup for members to vote? Or is it only the select committee who will vote.
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Post by Firefox on Mar 8, 2013 11:46:12 GMT
If 5 of us wanted to come then of course we would have to be members of the appropriate organisation and arrange well in advance subject to space being available etc etc. It all goes without saying Sorry to hear about Motoroamers, Club Nomad, and MH-W. There's also a lot of competition for forums from facebook/twitter etc nowadays and other sites wrapping their members in cotton wool, trying to prevent them from discovering anywhere else by deleting or banning links. I hope you can see we are somewhat different here, and will allow people to roam and link to their forum or their business, as we are not commercially driven. See the constitution freemotorhominguk.boards.net/thread/760/forum-constitution-draft It's a committee of 10 or 11 who will vote initially and the vote may be put out to the membership later if appropriate. Sorry it's not a public vote on everything, but this system is a balance between the autocracy of one admin and the slower process of having to consult everybody on everything.
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Post by wildman on Mar 8, 2013 16:54:54 GMT
OK, thanks, no one can say I didn't try. Site improving all the time by the way. Well done everybody.
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Post by Firefox on Mar 8, 2013 17:09:52 GMT
Thanks for that. We are here to stay! Even if we get short of posts, I've got plans to feed in more traffic. We don't need a lot of posts to stick around as our hosting is free forever, Hurray! And yet another FMUK meeting tonight - this one at Crufts followed by Shustoke Wilding
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Post by wildman on Mar 16, 2013 11:06:21 GMT
Forums that delete outside links are generally those who charge a membership fee so who can blame them for trying to preserve their income. Just as I'd hate anyone to come to my CL and start handing out advertising for a site down the road. Like it or not we live in a commercial world where people have to earn a living in order to survive. We can bypass some over the top expences by have a rally exemption certificate which allows us to bypass regular expencive sites. What was the outcome of the committee meeting by the way or need I ask.
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Post by derekfaeberwick on Mar 22, 2013 0:49:21 GMT
Forums that delete outside links are generally those who charge a membership fee so who can blame them for trying to preserve their income. Just as I'd hate anyone to come to my CL and start handing out advertising for a site down the road. Like it or not we live in a commercial world where people have to earn a living in order to survive. We can bypass some over the top expences by have a rally exemption certificate which allows us to bypass regular expencive sites. What was the outcome of the committee meeting by the way or need I ask. BUMP..
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Post by Firefox on Mar 22, 2013 4:13:30 GMT
Forums that delete outside links are generally those who charge a membership fee so who can blame them for trying to preserve their income. Just as I'd hate anyone to come to my CL and start handing out advertising for a site down the road. Like it or not we live in a commercial world where people have to earn a living in order to survive. We can bypass some over the top expences by have a rally exemption certificate which allows us to bypass regular expencive sites. What was the outcome of the committee meeting by the way or need I ask. It doesn't look like it will get carried at the moment. The Majority is against with some abstentions. You can blame today's litigious society for that. 30 years ago it would have been different. It's felt that formalizing the organisation holding the meet rather than just a loose group of friends could provide a focus for litigation in the event of say a fire causing damage or other accident. Since we are a free forum with no funds for public liability unlike say Motorhome Fun, who tap their members for substantial monies, our situation would be different to that of an organisation like theirs.
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Post by wildman on Mar 26, 2013 11:19:57 GMT
The litigation remains no matter how formal the club is. It exists online you cannot deny its existence. You cannot absolve yourselves from liability by saying we are not liable you might just as well change the forum name to the ostrich club. Other clubs charge a rally fee of £1 to cover public liability insurance. It seems to me that you all expect everything for nothing including effort. Before you dismiss it out of hand investigate the cost of PLI, then think of ways to cover it. You have been talking about buying woodland, you would need insurance to cover you for that so what really is the problem. a responsible club would nominate a rally organiser to insure sufficient spacing between vans at a meet so that no ones individual insurance can lay a blame at someone else. That's why H&S have the 6 mtr rule. We all live in a world smothered in rules like it or not, an exemption certificate allows you to bypass an awful lot of those. As has already been said most of the meets you have had were not covered by any certificate, liability should you have been challenged would have come down to the club, no matter if it is fee paying or insured. There is nothing wrong in covering all the bases. Unless of course you are all determined to do as you wish and to hell with everyone else which is not a very responsible attitude and not one I could align myself with. Laws regarding wilding in this country are being tightened every week by local TRO's caused by irresponsible wilding by a few, lets not add to the problem or soon there will be nowhere to park.
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Post by Firefox on Mar 26, 2013 13:53:12 GMT
I don't think we would need insurance for buying our own woodland. What for... please enlighten us ! As for public liability insurance I don't think we either want it or need it. Members would have to be regularly tapped up for quite a bit of cash. It would be at least £300 a year. Which means not £1 but £3. 10 x £3 at 10 meets a year is only £300. I think we'd struggle to raise it. And I personally don't care about insurance and the time taken to collect the money and pay it. It's all dead money I'd rather spend it on a marquee I've got a day job working 50 hours a week and don't have the time to be bothered with unneeded matters such as insurance. If anyone else wants to take the admin task up, they are welcome However, that's just my personal view, we can post a poll and see what other people think...
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Post by robmac on Mar 26, 2013 14:00:14 GMT
And why bother? The people who vote against will not be then happy to pay if it is voted in and you would probably get breakaway meets.
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Post by kangooroo on Mar 26, 2013 14:17:04 GMT
It's true, none of us can ever absolve ourselves of liability for negligence and this was a point I made in another post.
I am curious about insurance for woodland however and cannot see any requirement for this if there is no public right of way and the land is of a sufficient distance from property to ensure no risks of third party claims eg for a falling tree.
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Post by landydriver on Mar 26, 2013 19:49:51 GMT
Does your van insurance not include some sort of public liability insurance? If that is not enough then what about house insurance I thought there was public liability in it aswell?
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Post by derekfaeberwick on Mar 26, 2013 20:07:37 GMT
Does your van insurance not include some sort of public liability insurance? If that is not enough then what about house insurance I thought there was public liability in it aswell? You cannot be serious surely??? Van insurance or home insurance covering a meet???
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Post by Pollik on Mar 26, 2013 20:20:22 GMT
I don't think we would need insurance for buying our own woodland. What for... please enlighten us ! As for public liability insurance I don't think we either want it or need it If you own land, someone trespasses on and kills themselve, landowners can be held liable (in theory). It is not a legal requirement, but if someone does claim and is awarded damages of £2,000,000, landowners would (in the absence of documentation to the contrary) be personally held jointly and severally liable. So, if you own stacks of money or a house...it is all up for grabs, if you don't have POL insurance. Technically and legally. (Part of a past life was as professional trustee - some of the trusts held woodland.)
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Post by landydriver on Mar 26, 2013 22:19:13 GMT
Does your van insurance not include some sort of public liability insurance? If that is not enough then what about house insurance I thought there was public liability in it aswell? You cannot be serious surely??? Van insurance or home insurance covering a meet??? No not covering a meet....covering me!! A 'meet' cant actually do anyone any harm as its not a physical thing, its no more than a collection of words. Therefore any accident/responsibility must boil down to someone. eg If I light a fire then it would be my fire...my responsibility...my insurance. It all sounds like a money robbing scam to me, who defines what a meet is then who can prove its an orginosed meet!! Then what is an orginised meet? I arrange to meet someone...Bob we'll call him...in a layby is that a meet? does that make me responsible for Bob, I think not!! Bobs friend also shows up..who is reponsibale for him? Bob? Me? What if, lets say some on some Tractor forum 2 guys decide to meet up to discuss tractors. Is that a meet? Does the tractor forum need an what ever cert it is and PLI . NO so whats the difference? What if I invite the world and his dog to my birthday party on facebook...we'll have the party in a public place...hmmm top of ben nevis...thats an orginised meet. Who is liable then? Mark Zuckerberg he invented Facebook. What a lot of ballocks!! I can meet who ever I want where ever I want and If I happen to arrange it on a forum it'll make no difference. Anyway I think it would be better to not attend any meets where there are a bunch of folk obsesed with insurance cover. that sounds like real fun..not. All 6m apart, armed with fire extingushers wearing hi vis I also wouldn't want to know someone who attended a meet, had an accident...as mentioned somewhere...fell in the fire...then blamed the meet orginiser for there own stupidity.
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Post by derekfaeberwick on Mar 26, 2013 22:36:17 GMT
See Pollik's post immediately before your own one. Personally I agree with you for once, but I've never pretended to be anything other than a stirrer. Difference is I can speak sense when I feel the need and do not suffer from sycophantic delusions.
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Post by Firefox on Mar 26, 2013 22:53:36 GMT
I don't think we would need insurance for buying our own woodland. What for... please enlighten us ! As for public liability insurance I don't think we either want it or need it If you own land, someone trespasses on and kills themselve, landowners can be held liable (in theory). It is not a legal requirement, but if someone does claim and is awarded damages of £2,000,000, landowners would (in the absence of documentation to the contrary) be personally held jointly and severally liable. So, if you own stacks of money or a house...it is all up for grabs, if you don't have POL insurance. Technically and legally. (Part of a past life was as professional trustee - some of the trusts held woodland.) It depends on the set up. If it was set up as a limited company or a partnership, then the directors would not be liable in the sense there could be no claim on their personal assets, the same as for any limited company or partnership.
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Post by Pollik on Mar 26, 2013 23:03:41 GMT
My comment was based on there being no documentation to contrary - eg the land gets registered in Vernon's and Karen's names and nothing else. Of course, there are ways to mitigate the personal liability. Public Liability policy, limited company, held on a formal trust, indemnities...loads of ways.
However, I was responding to this:
The main issue being that landowners do carry some small risk. They can choose either to stand the risk or they can provide for it or mitigate or limit it in one or more of various solutions.
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Post by wildman on Mar 27, 2013 10:59:25 GMT
ok a couple of points to answer here 1) why insurance for woodland, well nearly all parcels of land are adjacent to others, should a fire start and spread to anothers land then a claim would be made for restitution. That fire could be caused by a cinder from a campfire starting another a bit further away, the pit fire getting out of control, a discarded piece of glass acting as a magnifier to the suns rays, a gas leak in a van, cigarette end and no end of causes. Gypsies could invade the land and set up camp, any damage to the surrounding area would be down to the landowners. 2) Who decides what constitues a meet, quite simply the law does. An assembly of more than 3 vans is unlawfull unless it is covered by a site licence or exemption certificate. Thank the hippy convoys for that piece of legislation. to suggest people can afford to buy woodland and not afford the cost of insurance is a little short sighted. Of course they can afford it even if they don't want to. for a rally to be official it must be listed as such on the forum and be covered one way or another by a site licence. A phonecall to natural England will help smooth the way for any problems, they are not out to prosecute you for what has happened in the past, thats not their job. They only want to help the applicant become legal now. It could be that you forget about meets, rallies and woodland and just use the forum as a place to exchange information, after all there are plenty of Clubs out there to cater for those other things. no one can be all things to all people. I do know of land at ross on wye suitable for a meet but like I said before an exemption certificate is required.
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