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Post by haddie on Apr 1, 2015 10:25:28 GMT
To be honest, I'm not the most "gifted" person to have ever raised a spanner. Years of messing about with 2-stroke scooters has given me a basic undestanding of engines and a healthy respect/acceptance of where my knowledge/enthusiasm balance is just about to fall out of kelter and start costing me money Whilst I am trying to sort out the leisure electrics on our Mk 3 Transit, I have enjoyed getting in my own mind how it all kinda fits together. Our van has 3 batteries. 2 in the engine bay and one under the seats/bed at the rear of the van. It looks to me like the two in the bay are 1 x crank battery plus 1 x leisure. The one under the seat is a 110ah leisure. There is a zig-zag switch which 'should' toggle between the leisure battery in the bay and the battery in the the back. Tracking down an earlier issue, I now know that the leisure battery in the back only gets re-charged when the van is on EHU. Leaving that aside, I have recently replaced the power pack/battery chargery on that section and am happy that section now works ok. Switching to the battery in the bay.....well nothing appears to be coming through. There is a switched/fused +ve feed running from this battery to the back of the zig-zag box. the fuse appears to be ok (continuity tested). There is power in the battery. Tracking the + ve wiring from this battery, I discovered what I now know to be a battery isolator switch (minus key, helpfully). I thought this might be the answer I was looking for, so sourced a switchkey yesterday. However activating the switch only seems to permit charge to come back from the alternator. Whilst i am partly pleased, because ultimately it will mean that I will have 1 leaisure battery getting recharged while we are chugging along, the logical side of me is puzzled. Why would you want to isolate that battery from the alternator? With her being an older girl, I could see the logic of having an isolator on the cranking battery as a basic anti theft device...but dont see the thinking behind "not" recharging your battery, after all, if you are parked up(which you are most of the time) there wont be any charge going back in so there would seem to be no benefit at all. I had actually hoped that the isolator was acting as the switch between the live feed from the battery, and the fused live going to the back of the zig zag....but they are both wired into the same terminal! Sorry for rambling....it's what I do best..... Any pointers/ideas gratefully received
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Post by stonedaddy on Apr 1, 2015 11:10:51 GMT
To be honest, I'm not the most "gifted" person to have ever raised a spanner. Years of messing about with 2-stroke scooters has given me a basic undestanding of engines and a healthy respect/acceptance of where my knowledge/enthusiasm balance is just about to fall out of kelter and start costing me money Whilst I am trying to sort out the leisure electrics on our Mk 3 Transit, I have enjoyed getting in my own mind how it all kinda fits together. Our van has 3 batteries. 2 in the engine bay and one under the seats/bed at the rear of the van. It looks to me like the two in the bay are 1 x crank battery plus 1 x leisure. The one under the seat is a 110ah leisure. There is a zig-zag switch which 'should' toggle between the leisure battery in the bay and the battery in the the back. Tracking down an earlier issue, I now know that the leisure battery in the back only gets re-charged when the van is on EHU. Leaving that aside, I have recently replaced the power pack/battery chargery on that section and am happy that section now works ok. Switching to the battery in the bay.....well nothing appears to be coming through. There is a switched/fused +ve feed running from this battery to the back of the zig-zag box. the fuse appears to be ok (continuity tested). There is power in the battery. Tracking the + ve wiring from this battery, I discovered what I now know to be a battery isolator switch (minus key, helpfully). I thought this might be the answer I was looking for, so sourced a switchkey yesterday. However activating the switch only seems to permit charge to come back from the alternator. Whilst i am partly pleased, because ultimately it will mean that I will have 1 leaisure battery getting recharged while we are chugging along, the logical side of me is puzzled. Why would you want to isolate that battery from the alternator? With her being an older girl, I could see the logic of having an isolator on the cranking battery as a basic anti theft device...but dont see the thinking behind "not" recharging your battery, after all, if you are parked up(which you are most of the time) there wont be any charge going back in so there would seem to be no benefit at all. I had actually hoped that the isolator was acting as the switch between the live feed from the battery, and the fused live going to the back of the zig zag....but they are both wired into the same terminal! Sorry for rambling....it's what I do best..... Any pointers/ideas gratefully received Phew Haddie I am having a job following that but just wondered does the thing you called a zig zag switch not separate the habitat electrics from the van electrics. Quite a lot do that so that any faults don't flatten the engine battery. You will only have one starter battery so the other two will be leisure batteries and should be the same size. Now if they are not linked up in parallel they may have been separated by that isolating switch you found that would always keep one in reserve if one went flat but that is an unusual way to do leisure batteries. Gosh I've even confused myself good luck with it. .... Tom ....
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Post by outtolunch on Apr 1, 2015 11:11:57 GMT
on a simple system without relays the isolating switch should just isolate the feed to the charging supply from the alternator because if left connected when parked you will also drain power from your engine battery it also stops power being pulled from the leisure battery on starting which if it is a purpose built leisure battery could damage it also depending on the cable size damage that. so switch should only be on after engine started and switched off as soon as stopped.
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Post by Firefox on Apr 1, 2015 11:44:46 GMT
Alternator charging +ve also connected to the engine battery +ve so the isolator is to prevent engine battery being discharged when you are parked and using the front leisure battery.
On your set up, having the leisure battery in the back, only charged by hook up would be a bad idea because it may be left in a discharged state between hook ups. This will affect the life of the battery as they start to sulphate if left discharged even for a day or two. I would recommend a 100w solar panel which can be used to keep your two leisure batteries topped up, even if you are not driving or on hook up.
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Post by haddie on Apr 1, 2015 12:08:51 GMT
Cheers for that.
Brevity is not something I'm blessed with Tom lol. Reckon the midwife gave me an injection of waffle at the Maternity hospital.
Checking the wiring on the Zig-Zag unit (brand name, honest ) it only switches power from either leisure battery. Presumably this is set-up this way so the starting battery doesn't get flattened by using any aspect of the leisure electrics.
BUT...reading around the subject in the meantime I think "outtolunch" has nailed the answer. It must be a system that doesn't use a relay. Seems a bit of a faff to start each journey with the bonnet up doesn't it?
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Post by haddie on Apr 1, 2015 12:11:51 GMT
Solar Panel? Being looking at them the other day...is it an easy install?
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Post by outtolunch on Apr 1, 2015 12:18:44 GMT
if it's under the bonnet yes I used to have an old transit with a isolating switch but that was mounted on the dash I'm presuming it's one of these
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Post by haddie on Apr 1, 2015 12:27:53 GMT
Thats the fella.
Got my head round it's purpose now...hadn't thought of it in terms of the charge also potentially getting pulled from the crank battery..only saw the link to the alternator.
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Post by Firefox on Apr 1, 2015 13:40:40 GMT
Solar Panel? Being looking at them the other day...is it an easy install? Yes you can usually stick to the roof with Sikaflex using pre-bought or made up aluminium angle brackets. Then take the cables down through a grommet/hole/sealant to a regulator which is usually the size of a small milk carton and then from regulator direct to the batteries. I recommend say 40A cables with a 25A in-line fuses. Will probably take about a 6-12 hours to fit.
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Post by haddie on Apr 2, 2015 16:44:48 GMT
Looking forward to having a bit of a play again over the long weekend. Been chucking it down as I've been getting home every night this week....kinda put the shine off standing outside with a voltmeter lol.
Can't go too far as I'm on call....kinda learnt that there is a proportional law between the distance I am from work and the propensity for the phone to ring :-)
Hopefully I can nail this last bit of circuit so we are better placed for future travels!
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Post by Firefox on Apr 3, 2015 3:38:12 GMT
Good luck with it. Hope you get some better weather over Easter
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Post by haddie on Apr 5, 2015 18:47:52 GMT
OK brain trust....I now know that there is 12v at the +ve connector from the engine bay leisure battery that connects to the zig unit(CP400 unit). The actual switch is fine...if I move the +ve from the cabin leisure cabin onto the same side of the switch everything works correctly. So my question for today is simply....how can I have 12v at a connector...a correctly working switch but no power coming through......if your looking for me....I'm in the garage looking for a big flippin hammer :-)
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Post by Firefox on Apr 5, 2015 19:22:29 GMT
OK brain trust....I now know that there is 12v at the +ve connector from the engine bay leisure battery that connects to the zig unit(CP400 unit). The actual switch is fine...if I move the +ve from the cabin leisure cabin onto the same side of the switch everything works correctly. So my question for today is simply....how can I have 12v at a connector...a correctly working switch but no power coming through......if your looking for me....I'm in the garage looking for a big flippin hammer :-) Sounds like a fault in the line or the Zig. Keep on following your 12v up the line and through the zig to the loads till you lose it.
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Post by haddie on Apr 5, 2015 19:35:29 GMT
That's pretty much what I've been trying to do. Tested voltage at the battery....tested at that isolator switch....tested at both sides of the inline fuse....and then tested at the final connector....12.5v all the way through the +ve feed.
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Post by haddie on Apr 5, 2015 19:39:32 GMT
Started reading today about problems caused by 'open circuits' think I 'll look into how to test for open faults.
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Post by haddie on Apr 5, 2015 19:40:51 GMT
Its like the voltage is there, but something is preventing the current from flowing
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Post by Firefox on Apr 5, 2015 20:16:01 GMT
If you have got 12.5v engine/leisure going directly into the Zig, but not 12.5v to the loads, the problem would be in the Zig? A switch or a fuse or a loose wire in there. Or maybe a Zig earth, but if your caravan/leisure battery is Ok, the earth sounds OK; it should be the same one, but worth checking.
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Post by haddie on Apr 12, 2015 13:19:27 GMT
So this is where I'm up to. 12.5v at the battery. 12.5 at the connector. Using voltmeter between connector and switch shows that when switched on, voltage drops to 6.5v. This happens which ever side of the switch I use.
Other leisure circuit still works perfectly either side of the switch..so not sure how it could be the switch that is at fault.
So what us this massive voltage drop telling me please?
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Post by outtolunch on Apr 12, 2015 13:26:12 GMT
does it drop at the battery as well if so the battery is knackered
it won't be the switch unless you have a different voltage either side, it could be the battery connection
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Post by Firefox on Apr 12, 2015 13:30:59 GMT
He's got 12.5 at the battery, so that's OK.
Voltage drop indicates loose connection or break in wire.
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Post by outtolunch on Apr 12, 2015 13:42:34 GMT
He's got 12.5 at the battery, so that's OK. Voltage drop indicates loose connection or break in wire. but that 12.5 is without any load as soon as switched on drops need to know if it drops at the battery or just at the switch
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Post by Firefox on Apr 12, 2015 16:01:04 GMT
He can put a load straight across the top of the leisure battery. Something like a 12v vacuum cleaner or a high wattage light etc. It should soon be possible to tell if the battery can deliver or not.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2015 17:29:42 GMT
Just to reassure Haddie that Firefox is your man for this kind of problem - he initially wired up my leisure battery with a Smartcom but had problems with that (long story not for now, like you I tend to use 6 words when 1 will suffice) so he rewired my elecs using an isolator switch and also adding a solar panel into the set up.
Absolutely delighted with the result - the solar panel is life changing - no more having to run the engine for half an hour to boost a flagging battery, no more worrying about a flat battery if I leave a light on accidentally (has been known to happen), ability to recharge every single electronic gadget daily and still have full battery for night time tv /dvd player / stereo and speakers etc even when parked up for a few days at a time.
The only minor flaw in the ointment and that was only because of the extra hassle factor and extra wire which would be needed, my isolator switch is in the rear and not in the cab so fairly regularly I forget to switch over when starting up and running. I don't worry too much about this as thanks to solar panel, the leisure battery is almost always fully charged when this happens and solar panel means that the leisure battery is still being charged even if isolator switch is set to Park instead of Drive, whilst engine is running. Even today in grim and grey Cumbria, the solar panel is putting more charge in that running the engine would be (been getting 16v today.
Now I am a bit of a dunce, and in all honesty, not a little scared about electrics, although have learned a bit from Firefox, but I'm wondering if the EHU battery in the rear was after market, added because of the problem with the leisure battery in the front. My theory doesn't solve the problem but may explain your set up.
Outtolunch has also helped me with elecs and knows his stuff too - you have 2 good uns helping you out here.
Good luck. Definitely look into solar panels but ask here on the forum for advice before buying - in the past bulk orders have been made to get a better price and there'll be plenty of advice on what regulator, wiring etc is best.
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Post by haddie on Apr 12, 2015 18:05:22 GMT
Deffo aftermarket WVW :-) Our transit has started life as a minibus. Dont know when she was converted, or who by. We got her at the start of 2014. Apart from the odd day, or a quick one night stop out most of our tra.vels last year involved us staying on commercial sites with EHU. I think this has masked issues with the leisure electrics that were probably there all along.
On our last trip to Scotland the prop shaft sheared, so she was off the road for a few months while I sourced one the right size. Getting her back and running has shown up a. Number of issues that have been a swine to get to grips with, not least because of the creative wiring.
Keep getting told that the easiest way forward is to just re-wire it...and it might come to that but I would also love to work out what is causing it, particularly now when I feel its so close :-)
Appreciating all the advice being given...going to work out what 12v device I can put across the battery to test based on Firefox's last suggestion.
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Post by Firefox on Apr 12, 2015 22:50:15 GMT
Anything will do, but the higher the wattage the better.
But even one of those croc clip on inspection lights. Say it is a 24w bulb. That's 2 amps. Should be able to run that for 24 hours on a 100Ah battery without appreciable dimming of the light.
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Post by haddie on Apr 13, 2015 19:32:21 GMT
What's that....? Did I hear someone say they wondered his Haddie was getting in with those infernal electrics? OK....if you insist:-) Have been rapidly reaching the conclusion that they best way forward is going to be to simply replace the wire. To see how worthwhile this would be I thought I'd simply bypass the current feed. Brought a roll of wire home from work. Ran it straight from battery to switch on zig unit. Guess what? No difference. Ran it from the cranking battery to the switch....no difference. On a punt I ran the cable between the -ve terminal and a -ve feed on the zig. Guess what?. It only sprang into life!!!!!! The feed I'd picked also had a feed from the other leisure battery in there so I was worried that I may be getting a false result...but as only the engine battery gets charged by the alternator, switching the engine on and seeing an increase in voltage convinced me that it was the right circuit. Still baffled...I know for certainty that this circuit has worked in the past. Bit puzzled as to why running this new feed in there so obviously gets it working. Certainly has the circuit flowing. Could I be masking some other problem or should I just stop thinkingand find a way to route this -ve cable.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2015 22:25:44 GMT
Tip - if you use the @symbol in front of the user name, like on Facebook, you can tag people in which means they get notifications and more chance of a quicker reply, like this.... Oy @firefox and outtolunch, get your thinking caps on... No idea. Until you said that the zig had previously worked, I was wondering if perhaps somehow the Zig wiring was wrong, wired with pos and neg wires reversed, but maybe that's not feasible, I dunno, it was just a thought. Unless someone took it apart to see how it works, had a fiddle around, put it back together, and voilĂ , it doesn't work anymore. I had a few ex boyfriends who did that kind of thing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2015 22:27:16 GMT
Not sure if tags have worked, am using android and they don't show up as links, but in theory, they should have worked...
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Post by Firefox on Apr 14, 2015 15:38:15 GMT
You need to tag the username that they signed up with.
For me this is
@admin
and not
@Firefox
You can find the name they signed up with by hovering the mouse over the blue link above their avatar or going to their profile page and looking at the username under the "follow" button in the top right.
The display name is usually the same as the username, but not always as you can change it once you have signed up.
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