|
Post by Firefox on Feb 15, 2014 21:55:09 GMT
Not motorhome but domestic. I have checked out my leaky stopcock and got a new one to match.
It is a fairly standard stopcock with a bottom 20mm MDPE pipe and a top 15mm copper pipe. There is a copper insert piece for the MDPE pipe. About 100mm of the bottom pipe sticks out of the floor slab.
So I have got the compression nuts free top and bottom on the old one and pushed them up the pipes a bit but there is not enough play to get old stopcock out from between the two pipes. The bottom olive is well squashed on the MDPE pipe and that joint won't move at all.
What do I do next? Do I have to put a horizontal straight joint in the copper pipe above by cutting the pipe so I can release the stopcock. Then I can get the new stopcock in but how do I then make up the straight joint. I would need a sleeve?
|
|
|
Post by edina on Feb 16, 2014 5:32:05 GMT
Not motorhome but domestic. I have checked out my leaky stopcock and got a new one to match. It is a fairly standard stopcock with a bottom 20mm MDPE pipe and a top 15mm copper pipe. There is a copper insert piece for the MDPE pipe. About 100mm of the bottom pipe sticks out of the floor slab. So I have got the compression nuts free top and bottom on the old one and pushed them up the pipes a bit but there is not enough play to get old stopcock out from between the two pipes. The bottom olive is well squashed on the MDPE pipe and that joint won't move at all. What do I do next? Do I have to put a horizontal straight joint in the copper pipe above by cutting the pipe so I can release the stopcock. Then I can get the new stopcock in but how do I then make up the straight joint. I would need a sleeve? I’ve done this before by cutting the copper pipe as far away from the stopcock as possible in a place where it has not been bent or damaged; then modifying a straight connector by grinding/filing out the internal stop ring. This makes a sliding sleeve that you can solder into place when the stopcock is fitted. Make sure you remove the washer from the stopcock and keep the MCPE joint cool while you solder the str conn in place. I suppose you could do the same with a comp fitting but I’d go for soldered if at all possible.
|
|
|
Post by seanrua on Feb 16, 2014 8:22:03 GMT
I'm not sure I fully understand the problem, Firefox, and 'tis a pity that my son-in-law who is a plumber has just gone back to Spain.
However, as I see it, there is not enough of a tail on the plastic pipe coming out of the floor, so you'll have to cut the copper pipe. As Edina said, pick a suitable place. Next, if all else fails, why not try a flexible joiner? In fact, if ye're at the plumber's merchants, ye could ask them what fittings they recommend. Btw, don't throw away the copper pipe off-cut; ye may need a "male" piece or two to make up the connections.
Also, in this day and age, there must be some designed slip-couplers that let ye join into a line. Years ago, in Australia, we had things called "Unions" that came apart to allow the collars onto the pipe first before you squeezed in the main body between the pipe ends. This was for big steel pipe in the mine, but I can't see why domestic plumbing hasn't got something to deal with the same old problem.
And, when cutting copper pipe, don't be old-fahioned and stubborn like me! I used a hacksaw for years, when those circular, spin- round, cutters are much much better. They leave a great end-cut that makes a better connection.Also, in this day and age, there must be some designed slip-couplers that let ye join into a line.
Years ago, in Australia, we had things called "Unions" that came apart to allow the collars onto the pipe first before you squeezed in the main body between the two pipe ends. This was for big steel pipe in the mine, but I can't see why domestic plumbing hasn't got something similar to deal with the same old problem.
Good luck!
sean rua.
|
|
|
Post by runnach on Feb 16, 2014 8:31:39 GMT
I,d look at leaving bottom blue water pipe as is, cut copper above stop cock, leaving enough space to manoeuvre, then replace copper section with flexible HEP20. Remember you need to fit stainless sleeves into both ends of hep.
Use compression fitting at hep/copper end.
Cheers.
|
|
|
Post by Etienne Le Croq on Feb 16, 2014 8:37:11 GMT
Any pictures chap?
|
|
|
Post by X on Feb 16, 2014 16:46:23 GMT
Copper slip coupler then solder simple . Is plastic pipe blue or black ?
Sent from my Nexus 4 using proboards
|
|
|
Post by runnach on Feb 16, 2014 18:40:49 GMT
Copper slip coupler then solder simple . Is plastic pipe blue or black ? Sent from my Nexus 4 using proboards Problem with soldering what was a live pipe is, residual water in pipe steaming up, steam then escaping through soft soldered joint = leak!!
|
|
|
Post by Firefox on Feb 17, 2014 1:22:13 GMT
3G still down so went to services for free wifi!
Thanks for all the suggestions. It's slightly complicated by the fact there is a feed for a cloakroom sink coming off just above the top compression nut. In fact I had to spend ages chipping away at thick paint runs to get the nut to clear the thread! Then about another 800mm up there is another spur to feed the downstairs cloakroom loo. But I think I can cut the pipe just below the toilet feed giving me quite a bit of play.
The pipe coming up out of the floor is black plastic, I think it would be about 1975 vintage. I did read somewhere that you can cut the olive with a hacksaw, holding the hacksaw at an angle so as not to damage the plastic pipe. It sounds a bit dodgy to me, the space is very tight and I think I may damage the pipe. If I can get the top pipe moved out, there should be enough play on the stopcock to waggle it around and break the grip of the bottom olive.
With regard to soldering, I don't have any kit. I could buy some and learn I guess. I've not done any plumbing solder before, only electrical soldering so would prefer compression fitting or push fit is my style! But I can see this may not work if a sleeve is needed.
Good point about water messing up the solder joint. I think though I would have access to both ends of the cut pipe, and it is drained down, so I could blow hot air in both sides with a fan heater to dry out any residual water - would this work?
|
|
|
Post by edina on Feb 17, 2014 7:49:28 GMT
Not motorhome but domestic. I have checked out my leaky stopcock and got a new one to match. It is a fairly standard stopcock with a bottom 20mm MDPE pipe and a top 15mm copper pipe. There is a copper insert piece for the MDPE pipe. About 100mm of the bottom pipe sticks out of the floor slab. So I have got the compression nuts free top and bottom on the old one and pushed them up the pipes a bit but there is not enough play to get old stopcock out from between the two pipes. The bottom olive is well squashed on the MDPE pipe and that joint won't move at all. What do I do next? Do I have to put a horizontal straight joint in the copper pipe above by cutting the pipe so I can release the stopcock. Then I can get the new stopcock in but how do I then make up the straight joint. I would need a sleeve? Just a thought, but what is the problem with the existing stop cock; can't you fix it rather than replace it?
|
|
|
Post by n brown on Feb 17, 2014 8:15:42 GMT
you'll love this- if there's any residual water or slight trickle,squeeze white bread into a ball and ram it up the pipe,push it in past where you want to solder, then do the joint.as for cutting off the olive on the plastic pipe I have done that a few times and if you're careful it's ok to do,just wrap about 10 turns of PTFE tape round the new olive if you score the plastic a little
|
|
|
Post by Firefox on Feb 17, 2014 10:40:22 GMT
It was leaking very badly. Tried to tighten the gland nut thing, but nothing worked.
|
|
|
Post by n8rbos on Feb 17, 2014 12:35:24 GMT
Cut an olive half way through then insert a flat head screwdriver into cut and twist. if pipe is then fitted to a tap and/or toilet undo fittings,fit new stopcock,tighten back up toilet and sink tap? .
|
|
|
Post by runnach on Feb 17, 2014 12:36:40 GMT
Good point about water messing up the solder joint. I think though I would have access to both ends of the cut pipe, and it is drained down, so I could blow hot air in both sides with a fan heater to dry out any residual water - would this work? Yes, if you dry out pipe, moisture will not be an issue.
|
|
|
Post by stonedaddy on Feb 17, 2014 12:47:23 GMT
Vern could you not take the tap and pressure nut and inner seal from the new stop cock and put it all back in the old tap that is still in place. I did this on an old radiator valve and it worked a treat. .... Tom ....
|
|
|
Post by seanrua on Feb 24, 2014 9:18:36 GMT
That seems like a great idea, stonedaddy! Unless, like so many stop-valves, the old, existing is very different from the modern equivalent.
We often ended up having to dig down to the feed pipe. Doing this was disruptive enough, but sometimes it opened up a can of worms, like, in old properties, finding rusty iron pipe or even lead. Hard to know where to draw the line, imo.
That said, I'm a great believer in the "blue pipe" and fittings ( horrible bulky things, "philmac", I think). Some winters we left these out on top of the ground and they stood a good freezing.
Btw, Firefox,
How did the job turn out? I'm a divil for liking to know the conclusion! Come to think of it, here are are a couple of outstanding issues, that are still on my mind:
a) what happened about the folk who were going to a dog show when their van was hit by a lorry on the hard shoulder near Banbury?
b) what happened about the stolen caravan found a few miles away from its owners near Fleet?
sean rua.
|
|
|
Post by Firefox on Feb 24, 2014 9:21:19 GMT
Not finished it yet... it's still as per a week ago, didn't have time to work on it.
|
|
|
Post by seanrua on Feb 24, 2014 9:26:00 GMT
OK, Firefox,
I know the feeling. I'm here writing when I should be out working!
sean rua.
ps
Stopcocks are major jobs. When you get it fixed, make sure you do what I always forget, ie. switch it on and off at least twice a year!
|
|
|
Post by stonedaddy on Feb 24, 2014 13:41:05 GMT
That seems like a great idea, stonedaddy! Unless, like so many stop-valves, the old, existing is very different from the modern equivalent. We often ended up having to dig down to the feed pipe. Doing this was disruptive enough, but sometimes it opened up a can of worms, like, in old properties, finding rusty iron pipe or even lead. Hard to know where to draw the line, imo. That said, I'm a great believer in the "blue pipe" and fittings ( horrible bulky things, "philmac", I think). Some winters we left these out on top of the ground and they stood a good freezing. Btw, Firefox, How did the job turn out? I'm a divil for liking to know the conclusion! Come to think of it, here are are a couple of outstanding issues, that are still on my mind: a) what happened about the folk who were going to a dog show when their van was hit by a lorry on the hard shoulder near Banbury? b) what happened about the stolen caravan found a few miles away from its owners near Fleet? sean rua. Last year Sean my stop cock out near the garden gate was leaking and United Utilities had to dig it up but they did not change the tap just the removable bits. I was surprised because the house was built in the early 50s so I would have thought they would have changed the lot to be on the safe side but no just the top bits and seal. They then filled it all in again and concreted over just leaving a little grid lid to get at it. I think they may have gone metric now but they probably got a conversion piece to cover this. Vern could shop round and get the identical looking stop cock and just pinch the bits he needs off it. Yeah come on Vern hows the job going. .... Tom ....
|
|
|
Post by stonedaddy on Feb 24, 2014 13:45:44 GMT
Whoops sorry I answered Seans post before I read all the posts that followed with the answers to my questions . .... Tom .....
|
|
|
Post by n brown on Feb 24, 2014 13:49:16 GMT
try to keep up dear
|
|
|
Post by Neva Aglenn on Feb 24, 2014 16:41:33 GMT
...If this is still un-resolved (only just seen thread..) Have You got over 95mm to play with on the 15mm copper? Ask Merchant (or BES online...£2.80 + vat) for a 15mm Repair Coupling...You can then cut out enough copper pipe to free the S/Cock & slide the Coupling into place....Comp. Fittings so no soldering req'd.
|
|
|
Post by seanrua on Feb 24, 2014 18:50:40 GMT
Yes, fmg ok, I think that's the sort of way I'd do it.
|
|
|
Post by Neva Aglenn on Feb 24, 2014 18:56:29 GMT
Was trying to work out wot fmg ok was!! Doh!
|
|