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Post by wildman on Apr 1, 2013 15:07:16 GMT
Woodland purchase - I was more thinking about expenses such as legal costs/telephone/postage rather than the actual purchase itself - but we'd have to set ground rules for anyone who contributed that they didn't mind the money being used for any of the following...blah, blah... or maybe they want their contribution ringfenced for one thing or the other. That's why we'd need to keep some kind of record in a notebook of who and how much and for what, and accounts of what we'd bought and when. I can see it being fraught with all kinds of difficulties and arguments if we are not very careful, but just thought I'd float it to see what the general feeling was Not everyone would want to contribute to a woodland project so any costs involved should be met by those who take out shares in the said woodland project. It is not feasible to co operativly buy the land then let everyone use it. If the land is used for a meet that involves non shareholders then everyone attending should expect to pay something towards the running costs. However people who do not use it cannot be expected to pay just because they attend a meet elsewhere. However if the Club was to invest in 3rd party insurance to indemnify all members at prearranged rallies wherever they are held (including the woodland project), then a token charge could be made towards it, say £1 per van per meet and would soon add up to cover the cost without being unreasonable.
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Post by Firefox on Apr 1, 2013 22:34:45 GMT
I'm not sure how we would "invest" in insurance when we don't have £200-£300 pounds a year and have £0 income, and the majority is against paying out for anything specific on a regular bases.
People seem to be indicating, if anything, we should not collect regularly but have a whip round for something small as and when we need it.
If anyone is willing to donate to insurance, feel free, but from the other poll about insurance the majority of people were saying they didn't think it was needed. I think the only way we could afford insurance is if some kind person donates each year to it.
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Post by wildman on Apr 2, 2013 10:01:28 GMT
It appears to me you are all too poor to even dream of buying woodland, still it is nice to dream I suppose. Whilst I have no doubt there are half a dozen members who would support a woodland project the rest want a free ride, maybe you are all so independant that the idea of meets does not appeal. Expences for phone stationary etc will always be there no matter what you do but getting people to agree to fund those expences is an uphill slog, over the years I have been aquainted with the postings of a lot of members on various forums I can see a pattern emerging of a few visionary people trying to motivate the masses who in turn are determined not to be motivated. There is no answer to that I guess. Nothing comes from nothing. I wish you all the luck in the world and enjoy your right to carry on dreaming. So much negativity will eventually kill the forum as it has so many others.
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Post by lotusanne on Apr 2, 2013 15:07:09 GMT
Hi Wildman. An interestimg post, I would guess that you are correct in some of your comments, especially if that has been your experience, but as you say, no harm in dreaming! The woodland project may or may not happen, but I suppose you could argue that it definitely won't if its not even up for discussion. Agreed, there a lot of issues to consider, apart fron obvious ones like cost and location. I dont agree that the idea of meets doesn't appeal though, I think they will def be on the agenda. Rememeber this is a relatively new forum with relatively few members, and things do take time to build up. I think things will change as the season goes on... summer weather and long light nights always encourages people to get out more in their vans and meet up more. And personal contact is what I think will help here...and I mean in general, to the forum, as well as to specific projects like the woodslands one. Not quite sure what you meant about negativity - did you mean in connection with getting insurance? I dont think anything has been cast in stone, its just probably too early days for some of these things to be decided, but still good to mull them over. Its a learning curve for a lot of us!
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Post by mr99g on Apr 2, 2013 16:27:34 GMT
Sorry. I have no income to speak of so I wouldn't be able to contribute anything and will have to abstain from any voting. My camping budget is restricted to fuel only with no extras at all. Re a marquee - I'm not sure this is very appropriate for discreet wildcamping??!!! Hi kangaroo, sorry in advance if my first post to you sounds a bit negative.You being part of the management and all that, ah well here goes. Hasn't everybody got £2 to £3 pound to spare even if it means not buying that tin of corned beef or just having chips and gravy at the chippy when you next go lol. I know some people just don't have the money full stop, but they are not usually driving and camping etc. For what it's worth I don't think the land issue would come off, but I'd be the first to put in to support the ones with a vision. Sorry if I have questioned your personal circumstances , and I don't want you annoyed . It was the amount that made me want to chirp up.
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Post by mr99g on Apr 2, 2013 16:28:40 GMT
Sorry. I have no income to speak of so I wouldn't be able to contribute anything and will have to abstain from any voting. My camping budget is restricted to fuel only with no extras at all. Re a marquee - I'm not sure this is very appropriate for discreet wildcamping??!!! Hi kangaroo, sorry in advance if my first post to you sounds a bit negative.You being part of the management and all that, ah well here goes. Hasn't everybody got £2 to £3 pound to spare even if it means not buying that tin of corned beef or just having chips and gravy at the chippy when you next go lol. I know some people just don't have the money full stop, but they are not usually driving and camping etc. For what it's worth I don't think the land issue would come off, but I'd be the first to put in to support the ones with a vision. Sorry if I have questioned your personal circumstances , and I don't want you annoyed . It was the amount that made me want to chirp up.
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Post by mr99g on Apr 2, 2013 16:32:32 GMT
I've just registered my vote as money for woodland. A measure of support really more than anything else. Anyway when I pressed the button, three votes registered ! Has this poll been doctored ??
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Post by lotusanne on Apr 2, 2013 16:49:20 GMT
oh no - I think that will mean you have to oontribute 3 times!!
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Post by mr99g on Apr 2, 2013 16:57:00 GMT
oh no - I think that will mean you have to oontribute 3 times!! Anyone got change of a tenner ?
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Post by lotusanne on Apr 2, 2013 17:04:22 GMT
I'll buy you a pint at the next meet!
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Post by kangooroo on Apr 2, 2013 17:48:57 GMT
Sorry. I have no income to speak of so I wouldn't be able to contribute anything and will have to abstain from any voting. My camping budget is restricted to fuel only with no extras at all. Re a marquee - I'm not sure this is very appropriate for discreet wildcamping??!!! Hi kangaroo, sorry in advance if my first post to you sounds a bit negative.You being part of the management and all that, ah well here goes. Hasn't everybody got £2 to £3 pound to spare even if it means not buying that tin of corned beef or just having chips and gravy at the chippy when you next go lol. I know some people just don't have the money full stop, but they are not usually driving and camping etc. For what it's worth I don't think the land issue would come off, but I'd be the first to put in to support the ones You clearly don't know my circumstances but, no, I definitely do not have a spare £2-3 and certainly would not have the funds available to go to a chippy even for the cheapest item on the menu. I will also be selling my van shortly...
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Post by n brown on Apr 2, 2013 18:04:32 GMT
I don't see how not being interested in communal ownership makes me negative!it may be that i'm being visionary by abstaining from contributing !and I don't want a free ride either and I can motivate myself.
sorry to hear you have to sell your van Kangaroo,will you be able to get something cheaper ?
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Post by mr99g on Apr 2, 2013 18:11:31 GMT
I don't see how not being interested in communal ownership makes me negative!it may be that i'm being visionary by abstaining from contributing !and I don't want a free ride either and I can motivate myself. sorry to hear you have to sell your van Kangaroo,will you be able to get something cheaper ? Sorry once again kangaroo, if I offended you .
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Post by robmac on Apr 2, 2013 18:13:53 GMT
I'm not sure what is happening with the woodland project. I understood it to be that a number of us got together, say 10 of us and all chucked in some money, say 5k each and then buy a woodland for the 10 of us to enjoy. I certainly wouldn't be looking to put in a lump sum for the whole forum to use the woodland, the only way I would be interested then would be if the whole forum contributed, but you will never get agreement from everybody so I would have thought it would be back to plan 'A' which I am still up for.
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Post by kangooroo on Apr 2, 2013 18:58:24 GMT
I don't see how not being interested in communal ownership makes me negative!it may be that i'm being visionary by abstaining from contributing !and I don't want a free ride either and I can motivate myself. sorry to hear you have to sell your van Kangaroo,will you be able to get something cheaper ? I was hoping to do another simple Kangoo van adaptation later this year but it's not been a good year so far with another bombshell, this time financial, just a few days ago which has thrown all plans into even more disarray. Paws are crossed that the year will get better but there's a lot of uncertainty at the moment. No offence taken, Mr99g.
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Post by n brown on Apr 2, 2013 19:19:44 GMT
life can really get on your nerves sometimes can't it ?
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Post by Firefox on Apr 3, 2013 1:14:46 GMT
We have got quite a lot out of this poll. There's no right or wrong answers, it's just meant to gauge opinion.
It shows the majority don't want to pay regular amounts at meets.
It also shows there is still quite a bit of interest in the woodland project. It was never intended we pay for woodland with £2-3 collected at meets - the only idea would be for expenses etc - but it looks like we will take all that forward under a separate group.
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Post by wildman on Apr 3, 2013 10:32:38 GMT
The negativity I refered to was not the woodland project which is a brill idea. It ill thought out as without an exemption certificate camping is only allowed on land over 5 acres for 28 days in total in one year. I have spent more than half of my life in and out around the laws pertaining to camping in the UK. If people want to flout those laws that is their own choice, but do go in with your eyes wide open in the knowledge you could end up owning a white elephant. It was the negativaty regarding lawful use, third party insurance, rally exemption certificates I was refering to, all of which combine to make rallying anywhere with the land owners permission a doddle and within the law. It you concider a law to be unjust then lobby to get it changed, they are there for a reason and the more people that flout them the more it also affects law abiding citizens which to my mind is both unfair and selfish. Yes money is tight for everyone and would be a darn sight worse if you were fighting a law suit. anyone attending a rally can afford £1 into the pot for expences. If they cannot then I suggest they could not afford the fuel to get to a meet in the first place and would not be attending. That is not a slur on those who are really struggling, we all find at times we are indulging in a hobby we can ill afford and no one should feel ashamed of that. some use their vans every weekend, others like myself only a couple of times a year in the main, but those trips are usually around 2000 miles long and I do save all year round for them. Don't drink or smoke so I earn my holidays.
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Post by mr99g on Apr 3, 2013 13:00:33 GMT
The negativity I refered to was not the woodland project which is a brill idea. It ill thought out as without an exemption certificate camping is only allowed on land over 5 acres for 28 days in total in one year. I have spent more than half of my life in and out around the laws pertaining to camping in the UK. If people want to flout those laws that is their own choice, but do go in with your eyes wide open in the knowledge you could end up owning a white elephant. It was the negativaty regarding lawful use, third party insurance, rally exemption certificates I was refering to, all of which combine to make rallying anywhere with the land owners permission a doddle and within the law. It you concider a law to be unjust then lobby to get it changed, they are there for a reason and the more people that flout them the more it also affects law abiding citizens which to my mind is both unfair and selfish. Yes money is tight for everyone and would be a darn sight worse if you were fighting a law suit. anyone attending a rally can afford £1 into the pot for expences. If they cannot then I suggest they could not afford the fuel to get to a meet in the first place and would not be attending. That is not a slur on those who are really struggling, we all find at times we are indulging in a hobby we can ill afford and no one should feel ashamed of that. some use their vans every weekend, others like myself only a couple of times a year in the main, but those trips are usually around 2000 miles long and I do save all year round for them. Don't drink or smoke so I earn my holidays. A lot of what you've said ,makes sense Roger. But is there a need to make the group fall in to these categories legally. I'm not saying its possible, but rather that flout the law, make sure it doesn't apply to you. 28 days is equivalent to 14 get togethers. I've not even counted the grey area days and I'm sure a person with an absent memory will loose track of the total quick enough . Problems tend to be neighbours, farmers and rangers I presume.
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Post by Firefox on Apr 3, 2013 13:48:56 GMT
£1 a meet isn't going to buy anyone much today. It would have to be more like £3 or so. I don't believe it is possible to predict what people are able to afford, even if they are running a vehicle.
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Post by billieblue on Apr 3, 2013 15:03:16 GMT
I agree with Robmac in that I thought the Woodland Project was only involving a few people who already liked the idea and were prepared to put in some funds if it happened. Seems daft having an ongoing thread about the pros and cons from people who aren't interested anyway. Plenty other things to discuss. My ignition problem for a start! Or not in my ignition's case. New thread coming up!
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Post by Mini on Apr 3, 2013 15:29:45 GMT
The woodland project is really confusing the issues for me. So, leaving that aside... if it would benefit the forum in general and the process of meets in particular for there to be a small contribution at each meet we attend, then I would definitely be willing and happy to do that. I originally voted to wing it because I thought you were mostly talking about buying specific items like marquees, firewood and a piece of woodland! I figured we could fund-raise for specific purchases as and when they crop up. Now that I've thought more about it, I feel if a few pounds here and there will contribute towards, for instance, a bit of paper that says we can convene for a few days and stay on the right side of the law, it might be worthwhile. If there's nothing we need, we can always buy that firewood or a round at the bar!
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Post by Firefox on Apr 3, 2013 15:57:45 GMT
The bit of paper would cost us nothing financially, but it would need a fair amount of up front time and effort to obtain, for which no one is willing to put in the time at the moment.
To go with the bit of paper we should probably have public liability insurance which is £200-£300+ a year. That will take a big effort to collect, if we could get it at all, and we would have to make that effort every year.
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Post by Mini on Apr 3, 2013 16:16:35 GMT
Yes, I see your point and the insurance is probably a bit ambitious. Is public liability insurance still required for us to meet in a pub car park or is that just a licence? Or nothing to do with it? Do we as a 'club' need the licence/insurance or is it the landowner as host? This is the reason I'm so confused... all the chat about the potential formalities has been tied up within talk about owning and using woodland, so I don't know where one ends and the other starts!
Edit to add: I think it's the Rally Exemption Certificate I'm talking about, isn't it? Do we still need insurance to have one of those?
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Post by Firefox on Apr 3, 2013 17:03:47 GMT
If the landowner/site owner has public liability then we don't need it. Where they haven't, then it's not a requirement of the certificate, but we lay ourselves open to more risk of a claim, being an officially organised body holding a meet under a certificate, as there is a clear convenient target for some twister of a lawyer to pin an accident claim onto.
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Post by wildman on Apr 4, 2013 9:56:49 GMT
Of the meets I have attended or had at my place the numbers do vary from 10 -50 vans (the August 12V seminar/rally for another forum has 40 vans reg so far) so lets say 10 vans per meet and 20 meets a year would cover the insurance without holding a raffle or owt. Insurance is not a nessecity to hold a rally exemption certificate and if you are to grow as forum based club you do need one. The community spirit arising from rallies is infectious and the more fun you have the more people will want to join. It is not about collecting vast sums but little and often low number of members mean low insurance costs. As to the exemption certificate give natural England a ring and they will advise on what meets you can put down. They are not interested in taking anyone to court for camping in the wrong place, its not their job. They only issue licences so that it can be regulated. The 1960 countryside act was to stop the hippy convoys not to stop legitimate clubs from camping. their one aim is to make it easy for you to be licenced. Otherwise they would charge for that licence which they do not.
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Post by Firefox on Apr 4, 2013 10:37:28 GMT
The 1960 countryside act was to stop the hippy convoys not to stop legitimate clubs from camping. The Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 was about stipulating that land owners had to obtain a licence for using their land as a site on which caravans could be stationed for habitation. The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 was (among other things) more aimed at ad hoc unauthorised camping by New Age Travellers, road protesters etc etc.
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Post by n8rbos on Apr 4, 2013 18:28:59 GMT
Having followed this thread i'm wondering, is this a forum or a club or both? Is the idea of this forum/ club to encourage wildcamping or campsites or both? The woodland that keeps cropping up, is this a fanciful dream or a long term plan for a few serious folk? Just questions.........
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Post by robmac on Apr 4, 2013 18:53:43 GMT
No nothing to do with clubs or sites. Just a venture by a few interested members to purchase a woodland between us to be used as we see fit, whether it be coppicing, bushcraft, camping or whatever. It was not designed for everybody on the forum to chip in, that would never work.
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Post by wildman on Apr 5, 2013 9:04:12 GMT
Any forum that results in meets/rallies is in effect a club that congregates intitially via a forum. Unless limited by being owned by a Limited company every member becomes liable for any expences or claims, hence the common sense reason for the club/forum obtaining public liability insurance. Head in the sand jobbie does not count in a court of law I'm afraid. Whilst we can each agree to take liability for ourselves the problem arises when more than one person or property is involved. Claiming not to be your brothers keeper will not work. We live in a world where everything costs an arm and a leg so should be insured for peace of mind and for everyone elses sake if not your own. to do otherwise is thoughtless. ducking and diving does not work in this instance.
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