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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2014 23:58:06 GMT
I spent the week before last week in Saltburn by the Sea near Redcar (my mum lives there) and during the course of the week I walked the dogs on 2 occasions in woodland areas locally, as well as going on to the beach every day.
2 days after we got home I noticed a white "thing" about 1 cm away from Rigg's upper eyelid, at first glance I thought it was maybe a dry scab although I hadn't noticed him hurting himself. Then on closer inspection it occured to me that it might be a tick - in nearly 20 years of having dogs, I've only ever noticed 2 ticks on them but I tend to keep them frontlined from Spring through to late autumn.
I have a proper tick remover tool but didn't want to use it as it was so close to Rigg's eye. When I looked at my calendar, it was over 2 months since they were last frontlined, and frontline only protects against ticks for a month (it protects for 6 weeks against fleas I think). I'd forgotten to frontline them last month so I did it straight away that night.
By the next morning the white scabby thing had turned brown so I knew it was a tick and was full of blood.
That afternoon, I noticed something on the kitchen floor - it was about the size of an old half penny (fingernail size) and a kind of grey brown colour with a tough plastic like exterior. I poked it with a cocktail stick and it was squishy inside. I flicked it over and saw lots of little black legs wiggling around - yes, it was a horrible big fat but happily dying tick. Frontline had got to work and been effective in about 16 hours.
But it wasn't the one by his eye, so he must have had more ticks that I hadn't seen or found when I'd brushed him the first day we were at home. His coat is similar to that of a German Shepherd - he's not smooth coated nor long coated like some border collies, but somewhere in between the two, with a dense undercoat and being black coated it's difficult to see either fleas or ticks on him.
The next day I found another of these horrible things on the floor in the house. But it still wasn't the one on his eye which was still there 2 days later, although no bigger.
The following morning the tick by his eye had gone, and unfortunately I discovered it on the bedroom floor when I stood on it in bare feet after getting out of the bath.
So that's at least 3 ticks that I know of and there could well have been more but within 36 hours the frontline had effectively killed them off safely. I have to admit that in the past I have sometimes I wondered whether I really do need to keep the animals frontlined for about 3/4 of the year (it's not cheap for a big dog, medium dog and a cat) but this has definitely proved to me just how effective it is, and definitely well worth the cost, bearing in mind the problems that ticks can cause - I know of a search and rescue dog, a healthy active dog, which died of kidney failure, thought to be as a result of an untreated tick.
And if all that isn't gruesome enough, I do have some photos and some video of the nasty little critter on it's back waving it's nasty little legs around - happy to post them up here if any one wants to see :-D
On a serious note though, do be "tick aware", both with your dogs and with yourselves - both times that I walked the dogs in the woods in Saltburn, I was wearing shorts, walking sandals and had bare legs and was very lucky (presumably because I stayed on the path and didn't go crashing through the undergrowth like the dogs) that I didn't get "ticked". Humans can get nasty diseases from ticks too.
Incidentally, I've thoroughly checked Diesel and there's none on him - his hair is very short, virtually non existent on his belly and inside legs, and he is white haired so it's much easier to spot any nasties. I'm guessing that his short hair actually protects him as there's not much for the ticks to get hold of and to hide in, and his coat is very smooth, almost like a protective barrier, whereas Rigg's is more shaggy and long and loose, perfect for nasties to hide in.
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Post by WindDancer on Jun 11, 2014 1:14:07 GMT
Ticks, horrid little creatures, I hate them! Grrrr Glad you got yours sorted VWV I am a dab hand at finding them and getting them off My dogs are prone to them due to the amount of time we spend in woodland where plenty of deer roam. Round my way the vets have finally admitted to (some of) the disadvantages of Frontline, but only because they now want to sell something even more expensive! Fewer and fewer people are having success with frontline, and most vets around here have stopped selling it. It never did stop the blighters from attaching, but the idea was that it killed them when they drank the 'poisoned' blood. Often they would still not detach but just die in place and still need removing. More importantly though, try goggling 'why is frontline bad for dogs'. I stopped using it years ago, and actually have much less of a problem since I started using natural methods. 'Billy No Mates' from CSJ - a herbal remedy which is excellent. Organic Apple Cider Vinegar Garlic Ellen Collinson Herbs also do one I can't remember the name of. - all of these are mixed in with food (at recommend dosage). I am normally using one or another of the above (but not all at one time!). Calendula is another application which can be used easily on pets or humans. I was buying it from BADA but when I went to find the link I was shocked to see they have recently ceased trading. Still a good source of information about ticks though. www.bada-uk.org/tick-preventionThere are various shampoos too, and I have special bedding which is preventative for parasites. Lymes disease is very rare and happens only if an infected tick is attached, and for long enough. However it is a horrid and complicated disease. My friends dog got it, despite being up to date with Frontline, and was lucky to recover well with the traditional high dosage antibiotics. Having convinced myself of the dangers of spot on v's the risk of Lymes I would not touch the chemicals with a barge pole, but it is up to each individual to satisfy themselves. The information is easily accessible. I would say that most of us have been indoctrinated into believing that we are doing the best for our pets by: -monthly spot on -quarterly worming -annual vaccinations Chemical, chemical, chemical AND…. none of the above is necessary! Don't just take your vets word for it, find out from unbiased sources You will be surprised!
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Post by WindDancer on Jun 11, 2014 1:15:14 GMT
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Post by Ems&Beau on Jun 11, 2014 6:56:46 GMT
That's an interesting read. As a fairly new dog owner (had Beau 3 years now but still learning) it is interesting hear what people do or think. I have generally followed the vets advice however after buying frontline I've not really used it. Probably used it about twice a year when I think she had a flea! Beau has had ticks especially when in Scotland the first time, I just removed them with one of those tools. Worming I do more regularly as advised by the vet.
My understanding is that a responsible dog owner is supposed to vaccinate their pet annually, I didn't realise the side effects or that I had a choice. If I want to take Beau to Europe she will need her jabs up to date. Also my insurance for Beau states she has to have up to date vaccination's (I think). That kind of corners dog owners into having their pets vaccinated?
I will have a good read through the site when I have time.
The raw food diet interests me but the cost of it scares me. Also we cook chicken to kill off bacteria, can dogs tolerate these bacteria when they eat raw chickens or is there somewhere else to source chickens for dogs! I keep researching dry dog food as that is what Beau eats at the moment but there are so many different views its difficult to know what is best. She seems healthy which is good :-) although still very mischievous!
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Post by WindDancer on Jun 11, 2014 10:02:24 GMT
My understanding is that a responsible dog owner is supposed to vaccinate their pet annually, I didn't realise the side effects or that I had a choice. Therein lies the root of the problem Interestingly even the manufacturers of the vaccines don't recommend annual treatment (anymore), but 3 yearly. Once this started happening the vets around here all came up with an 'Annual Package' which included vacs, wormers and flea control. It looks like a good deal, but is unnecessary and more beneficial for the vet than the dog. For the pet passport it is only the rabies that needs to be up to date, not the others. My insurance company(s) do not require it either, but they will not pay out for a disease that would have been covered by the vacs. Pets as Therapy, which 2 of mine are registered with were insisting on annual vacs. I phoned to ask why (given the manufacturers recommendation) and I discovered that it was not actually required For some reason they just didn't advertise it, which is not helpful. I have not vaccinated for about 6 years, but, for peace of mind have had mine titre tested to check their active levels. All levels were still high, indicating sufficient cover. It's a very simple and quick blood test The only one that is short lived is Leptospirosis (rat pee disease). but…… vaccination may not even be effective and only lasts about 3-4 months anyway! Fortunately it is an extremely rare disease For worming, again there are safe and effective natural alternatives. There is even a company that will check if the dog is affected! www.wormcount.com My 3 dogs have been checked periodically over several years and their results have always been clear Re the Raw Food, that's another minefield! rawfed.com/myths/bacteria.htmlIf you are satisfied you'd like to try it, it can actually be done very cheaply. Some people get free meat from their local butcher or farm shop. Beau would not require very much The raw food companies are convenient, but do vary a lot in price. I can send you links etc if you like. I often give mine raw chicken wings, drumsticks etc from the supermarket/butcher. They go mad for them!!! (NEVER cooked bone though). Glad to hear that Beau is doing well, and letting her character flourish
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Post by stonedaddy on Jun 11, 2014 10:21:50 GMT
Kaiser had loads of ticks in Scotland. He had one right on his eyelid which was a pig to shift but Vern got it in the end with tweasers. After that we was taking them off him with a tick remover every day. I even borrowed a tick remover at the vets and got some more out of him. There was that many of them I am sure they had booked a booze cruise on the ferries with us. .... Tom ....
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2014 11:29:24 GMT
Some really interesting replies, thanks everyone, especially to Winddancer, I will definitely do some research and may well come back to you with questions etc. I know your dogs are in stunning health and are the living proof that herbal and natural diets and therapies not only work but can be very beneficial to the dogs - you're right in that we are so indoctrinated by the vets and the dog food companies about what is best that we never really stop to question it - as ever it all really just boils down to someone somewhere whose priority is making lots of money rather than having the best interests of the animal at heart.
I'm lucky that where I live we don't seem to have much problem with ticks (at least, over the past 10 years, I've never noticed ticks on the dogs and there have been other times when I haven't kept up with their frontline for a few months) but further over into the Lake District there are areas where they are rife. And they are obviously rife in Saltburn although I've never had any problems when visiting Saltburn in the past - but to be honest, with a fab beach there, we tend to spend our exercise time on the beach rather than in the woods.
Even with a tick remover I'm reluctant to remove them manually as I've only ever had to do that a couple of times and I'm wary of leaving the mouthparts in if I do it wrong. A shepherd friend of mine used a cigarette to burn one off my first dog years ago, and that was very effective but since then I've heard that doing that can cause the mouth parts to get left inside too.
I've always used chemical products against fleas because of the cat - she is fluffy and prone to bringing home bits of dead rabbit and regularly gets flea infested if not treated. And then because she snuggles up with the dogs, sleeps in their beds etc, she passes them on to the dogs.
Rigg's jabs are now 2 years overdue but I haven't rushed to get them done because he is now 11 and has had regular boosters all his life. I don't usually get them done every 12 months but usually around the 18 month - 2 year point as a vet told me that if a dog has had regular boosters, by middle age it will have enough immunity and it's only the insurance companies which insist on annual boosters - hmmmm, something to do with money perhaps?
Interestingly too, although I never have done and never intend to board the animals at kennels, if I were to do so, they would also have to have a Kennel Cough jab, despite the fact that Rigg had Kennel Cough when he was about 2 years old (luckily not serious and he was only affected for a week or two) and like Chicken Pox in humans, once a dog has had Kennel Cough, it will never get it again as it will have developed immunity against it. It seems so wrong to me for kennels to insist that a healthy dog with natural immunity against Kennel Cough should be subjected to an unnecessary chemical injection, although because it is so infectious, I do understand their concerns.
I will look into the CSJ products - I really rate CSJ and have recommended their food to other people - I first discovered it about 10 years ago when I met Ceri Rundle (the owner) at a major sheepdog trial and she told me about her philosophy behind her food and her belief in natural products. We spent quite a while chatting and I was very impressed - her background means that there probably isn't much she doesn't know about dogs and yet she didn't make a big thing about her knowledge and experience, in fact it wasn't till afterwards that I realised what big names she and her dad are in the Sheepdog world. It's good to see her range of products has significantly expanded over the years and that her business seems to be doing well.
It's also interesting that when I took Diesel on last August, he was on steroids, antibiotics, antihistamines and a special shampoo for his skin problems and I was warned that he would probably need medication all his life. I got him off the steroids asap (the steroids probably explain some of the behavioural problems he came with in the beginning), only used the shampoo a couple of times, and he was off the antihistamines by the winter. I have been half expecting to have to put him back on Piriton over the summer as Staffies are prone to allergies, particularly hay fever type allergies, but as yet, no sign of any problems. I'm now firmly convinced that in some dogs, things which are treated as medical problems, are actually symptoms of behavioural problems, stress and distress. In Diesel's case, I'm convinced that being given consistent rules, plenty of fun and enjoyable free exercise, with tasks to work at and to achieve and rewards when he does achieve them but not too much affection from me, and having a well trained older dog as mentor has been what has caused the improvements. His whole demeanor has changed from being a pent up, highly strung, physically and mentally challenging problem dog to one who is happy and relaxed, who knows his place in our hierarchy and is happy with that, and who is curious and friendly towards other dogs instead of being anxious and tense.
Not sure if it does do any good but both the dogs have cod liver oil supplements with their food - they both have lovely glossy coats at least - and since Rigg has turned 11 and I've started noticing just slight touches of stiffness the day after energetic exercise, he now has a Glucosamine tablet daily (400mg). I'm currently debating whether or not to start giving him half an aspirin daily to protect against stroke but I think he is still a bit too young (my first collie had a stroke aged 14 but he had been showing symptoms of canine dementia since he was about 10 or 11, and this may well have affected his blood pressure and physical health). Your thoughts on this would be appreciated Chris.
Must dash now as the postie has just brought me my new pop up traffic cone so Diesel is now going to be doing lots of sendaway practices. I started him on sendaways a few weeks ago, by getting him to watch Rigg doing it, and then sending him away to where Rigg was lying down. It was amazing how quickly he got it just from Rigg's example, and he has learned so much else in the same way, just by copying Rigg. I now have a Staffie who will lie down at a distance to a Sheepdog lie down whistle (Diesel has learned this from Rigg without me specifically teaching him, the same way Rigg learned it when he was a pup from Penny, my second dog, who was my working collie who I trained for sheep and trials). I have to say I'm rather proud of the little fellow - he has a big head but much smaller brain than the collies and it's clear he doesn't have their intelligence or ability to problem solve or do basic reasoning, but he does try sooooooo hard that even if he doesn't always get it quite right, I do give in sometimes and just reward him for the effort he puts in. The psychology of it all is fascinating.
It's really important to me to get Diesel to a point where he is a positive role model for Staffies, to counter some of the terrible bad press they get. I want to prove to people that it's not the dog, nor the breed, but the owner, which is responsible for the dog's behaviour, and that even problem dogs can be put right with the correct approach, knowledge, patience and determination not to give in. I'm intending to get Rigg PAT tested this summer (it's been a life long ambition but he's always been too "bouncy" but over the past year, he has become much more cuddly and happy to just sit next to someone and rest his head on their knee in return for a good scratch around the ears or under his chin, he's sooo gentle and perceptive now, and I think the time is right for him to finish off his career as a PAT dog, which will mean that I will be able to take him into the care home to visit my mum which will be nice. I'm hoping that eventually Diesel will become a PAT dog too, but first I'm determined to achieve at least CD level in Working Trials with him, again just to prove exactly what you can do with Staffies.
Bless him, Diesel only properly learned to jump a couple of months ago - like swimming, it was one of those things which he'd obviously never done before and didn't realise he could actually do - he needs lots of encouragement at first, and to be able to see Rigg doing it effortlessly and in his stride before he will attempt at jump, but it's lovely to see his delight and his confidence soar when he achieves something. He now happily jumps over fallen trees etc whereas in the past he would have simply just found a way to go round them. I think he must have only ever had short lead walks in his former life - no wonder he got into such a state, with no way to burn off his energy.
The new cone is beckoning.....
Keep the discussions going, very interesting to hear other peoples' views and stories.
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Post by sharonthecat on Jun 11, 2014 15:30:49 GMT
Be careful of the grey lumpy things that fall off. They can burst & if they do they are full of baby ticks. The thought gives me nightmares!
My dogs used to pick up sheep ticks on the cliff tops in Devon, so if we were going to visit my parents I would sometimes delay the Frontllne until just before we went to make sure it would be effective against ticks,
There has always been a problem with some cats & dogs reacting to Frontline. In my experience, & I have a lot of experience with fleas, ticks, worms & other unwelcome visitors, nothing gives as good protection against fleas as Frontline or similar & keeping the animal's bedding & soft furnishings in the house well vacuumed & treated if necessary. For anyone who has not been put off by the Frontline scare stories, the license on it has now expired so other products are available with the same effective ingredients at a lesser price, such as Fiprospot.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2014 15:55:14 GMT
OMG! Baby ticks all over my bedroom floor.
I regularly wash dogs bedding etc at 60C as that is the temperature which will actually damage the eggs aswell as kill off fleas. Apparently.
I wish I could say that I use Mr Dyson as often as wash the bedding :-( but I don't have carpets (years of flea related hassle so now I just have washable rugs.
And once in a blue moon I do give cushions, mattresses, skirting boards, floor boards, nooks and crannies a good going over with a steam cleaner.
It's usually the bloody cat's fault if we've got fleas :-(
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Post by WindDancer on Jun 11, 2014 17:00:32 GMT
Be careful of the grey lumpy things that fall off. They can burst & if they do they are full of baby ticks. They may be full of larvae, which they would otherwise detach and lay. I always burst ticks when I remove them, or the odd one that went unnoticed and falls off. I hate doing it but I want to make thoroughly sure they are not going back onto any other animal! Luckily never found any eggs, euwww the thought! lol
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Post by Mikehanky on Jun 11, 2014 17:07:05 GMT
all ways use frontline on bailey he is a french basset fauve think that the right spelling any way he is a total flea bag, like all hounds he has to roll on ever smell in a field shit shit and more shit .we use frontline ever month expensive but it works.had no problem with fleas or ticks since
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Post by Firefox on Jun 11, 2014 19:35:47 GMT
Can drop ticks into cup of water and washing up liquid and they will drown. Or into rubbing alcohol, kerosene or lighter fluid will kill them quicker. Or burn them, or flush them down the toilet wrapped in tissue paper.
It's not recommended to burst them as this can spray a toxic plume of pathogens into the air around you and your pet and you can could catch something off it.
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Post by WindDancer on Jun 11, 2014 22:09:31 GMT
It's not recommended to burst them as this can spray a toxic plume of pathogens into the air around you and your pet and you can could catch something off it. Where does this information come from?
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Post by Firefox on Jun 11, 2014 23:43:46 GMT
Pretty much anywhere vets talk about tick disposal on the net: eg www.familyspetcremation.com/blog/2014/04/remove-ticks-from-your-pet-safely/www.wikihow.com/Kill-a-TickIn fact, trying to drown them in plain water, as we did with Mia's and Kaiser's ticks, is not recommended either. Nor is burning them with a match which can release a toxic cloud. The safest, surest, vet recommended, method seems to be alcohol, strong antiseptic like listerine, or lighter fluid. This will kill the tick without releasing the contents. Also safe seems microwaving them in a plastic bag for 20 seconds which contains the contents when they pop.
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Post by sharonthecat on Jun 13, 2014 9:28:52 GMT
Pretty much anywhere vets talk about tick disposal on the net: eg www.familyspetcremation.com/blog/2014/04/remove-ticks-from-your-pet-safely/www.wikihow.com/Kill-a-TickIn fact, trying to drown them in plain water, as we did with Mia's and Kaiser's ticks, is not recommended either. Nor is burning them with a match which can release a toxic cloud. The safest, surest, vet recommended, method seems to be alcohol, strong antiseptic like listerine, or lighter fluid. This will kill the tick without releasing the contents. Also safe seems microwaving them in a plastic bag for 20 seconds which contains the contents when they pop. Microwaved ticks ................... Think I'm gonna be ill
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Post by sharonthecat on Jun 13, 2014 9:30:51 GMT
I regularly wash dogs bedding etc at 60C as that is the temperature which will actually damage the eggs aswell as kill off fleas. Apparently. It's usually the bloody cat's fault if we've got fleas :-( Yes 60 degC is spot on. I wash our bedding & towels at that temperature too as Tilly likes a cuddle on the bed in the morning. IN my experience cats are far more likely to have fleas - it's a lifestyle thing.
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