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Post by Firefox on Apr 29, 2013 23:28:00 GMT
For those of you who don't know what it is, an Exemption Certificate is issued by Natural England to an organisation so that they may hold a rally or a camping meeting for up to 5 days. It is an exemption to the 1960 Caravan Sites and Control of Development act which stops land being used as a Caravan site without a site licence or planning permission. On obtaining a certificate, we would be exempted from the act and able to stay legally (with permission of the land owner) provided we follow a code of conduct and provided we don't stay more than 5 days. The certificates last 5 years and are free to obtain from Natural England provided their requirements are met. The organisation obtaining a certificate must be formally constituted and exist for the purposes of promoting recreation. Although some official rally sites and fields require a certificate, we would still be able to hold adhoc meetings as we do now without using the certificate, such meetings being organised by members through their own initiatives. If you want to read more you can here: www.naturalengland.gov.uk/ourwork/regulation/campingandcaravan/caravanexemption.aspxand here: www.naturalengland.gov.uk/Images/combined-guidance_tcm6-9572.pdfThe code of conduct is not much more than we do already eg Be respectful, clear up litter and waste, leave site tidy etc etc
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Post by Is it spring yet, dormouse? on Apr 30, 2013 8:02:49 GMT
Is the certificate free or is there a charge? Not that it makes any difference, I think it's a good idea
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Post by Firefox on Apr 30, 2013 10:58:02 GMT
Certificate is free and lasts for 5 years when we would have to reapply as per description above
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Post by Mini on Apr 30, 2013 23:54:35 GMT
I now think it's a good idea too. Some of our meets might not require a certificate but others quite likely will. It's like a tool stashed away in a drawer somewhere... not something you need every day but very useful at times
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Post by ambulancechaser on May 1, 2013 8:18:20 GMT
We have one at ccuk, we used it for the 1st time at easter at gib farm silverdale, by using the certificate our members saved £9 a night by using the sites rally field which nowadays every penny counts. I know a lot dont use campsites here but i think it could come in handy,plus its free so why not have it there just incase?
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Post by robmac on May 1, 2013 19:03:28 GMT
I'll make the application as soon as Vernon gives the go ahead (depending on vote!).
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Post by X on May 1, 2013 19:13:34 GMT
yes but should be locked away in a dark cupboard and only produced when captain jobsworth blows a gasket !
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Post by robmac on May 1, 2013 19:21:11 GMT
There's only one dark cupboard in my van Charlie. Can always use more paper in there!
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Post by X on May 1, 2013 20:13:48 GMT
Too much information !
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Post by Rubbertramp on May 1, 2013 20:15:03 GMT
All sounds Hunky Dory on the surface but once you start letting any authority know who you are you are holding yourself open for them to come to you demanding you comply with all sorts of regulation and legislation. Just think about your dealings with authority in your daily lives.....if they are more than 50% positive then I want to come and live where you live! As was said in the other thread, if some of us are parked up for five days (very rare anyway) by the time the cogs of compliance got grinding to get us to move on we'd be long gone!
Total waste of time in my opinion.
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Post by robmac on May 1, 2013 20:51:13 GMT
I'm a bit on the fence with this one, but don't mind doing the legwork if it is voted for. I think you're right in some respects though Mark.
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Post by Firefox on May 1, 2013 21:56:30 GMT
I've mixed feelings too, but I had a hunch that the consensus of the forum would be for rather than against.
We'd only use it on a Rally field where they required it. Otherwise we'd do what we've always done.
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Post by Is it spring yet, dormouse? on May 2, 2013 10:26:17 GMT
I too don't like excessive rules and the intervention of powers that be, but this sounds like any other license/insurance/permission permit etc. Once you've got it you can use it when the need arises, which you bet your bottom dollar it will when we stumble across a perfect location/site for a get together and we really need it! If not it hasn't cost anything other than a bit of time applying for it. Got to be worth a punt? I've voted for it anyway
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Post by Firefox on May 2, 2013 10:44:39 GMT
Pretty much my thoughts. I'd hope any rally sites we did use would have their own public liability insurance to cover mishaps on the site.
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Post by wildman on May 28, 2013 10:56:15 GMT
All sounds Hunky Dory on the surface but once you start letting any authority know who you are you are holding yourself open for them to come to you demanding you comply with all sorts of regulation and legislation. Just think about your dealings with authority in your daily lives.....if they are more than 50% positive then I want to come and live where you live! As was said in the other thread, if some of us are parked up for five days (very rare anyway) by the time the cogs of compliance got grinding to get us to move on we'd be long gone! Total waste of time in my opinion. This post, and you have every right to make it is typical of the object to anything even if you have no idea what it is all about brigade. The rally exemption certificate is issued by Natural England to overcome the need to apply to local government for planning consent every time more than three vans congregate (more than three vans without a licence is an unlawful assembly), it goes a little way towards redressing the total ban imposed by the law following the hippy convoy days to protect land owners rights. By parking up for any length of time without the appropriate permissions you just get peoples backs up even if they can do nowt about it. Far better for everyone to be happy and unconcerned. Far better to think of those who follow you and the poor sod who pulls up the minute you leave and gets it in the neck 5 mins later. The certificate is issued to responsible organisations free of charge with minimal paperwork. so members have nothing to fear, on the contrary they can relax if they hold an official meet knowing legalities are covered. Parking a safe distance from one another will lessen the chances of accidents involving more than one van and are not a legal requirement but are safe practice. you all have third party insurance so no extra insurance should be necessary. The certificate just makes life easier all round, everything is a plus and no negative aspects. your personal anomnity is safe.
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Post by Firefox on May 28, 2013 18:44:50 GMT
Just done a 4 and 5 van convoy to Scotland for two weeks. Spend one night in each place and it's fine. If over 3 vans is illegal, the police don't seem to think so, as we were eyeballed a couple of times by them with no interference.
I believe the actual law is 1992 criminal justice act, over 5 vans causing a disturbance (abuse, litter, or criminal damage). These vans can be moved on by the Police following a warning notice. This only applies on private land which could be covered by an exemption certificate to remove the need for planning from the owner of the land. Otherwise extended stay on private land with or without permission is a civil matter. Either an eviction notice by the landowner or notice by the local authority against the landowner under the 1960 act. Either would take many weeks to put into place so effectively is not applicable to 1 or 2 night stopovers.
If there is a "3 van rule" I would like to see a link to the relevant legislation.
On highways land, lay-byes or council car parks the 1992 act does not apply.
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Post by Rubbertramp on May 28, 2013 21:58:46 GMT
All sounds Hunky Dory on the surface but once you start letting any authority know who you are you are holding yourself open for them to come to you demanding you comply with all sorts of regulation and legislation. Just think about your dealings with authority in your daily lives.....if they are more than 50% positive then I want to come and live where you live! As was said in the other thread, if some of us are parked up for five days (very rare anyway) by the time the cogs of compliance got grinding to get us to move on we'd be long gone! Total waste of time in my opinion. This post, and you have every right to make it is typical of the object to anything even if you have no idea what it is all about brigade. The rally exemption certificate is issued by Natural England to overcome the need to apply to local government for planning consent every time more than three vans congregate (more than three vans without a licence is an unlawful assembly), it goes a little way towards redressing the total ban imposed by the law following the hippy convoy days to protect land owners rights. By parking up for any length of time without the appropriate permissions you just get peoples backs up even if they can do nowt about it. Far better for everyone to be happy and unconcerned. Far better to think of those who follow you and the poor sod who pulls up the minute you leave and gets it in the neck 5 mins later. The certificate is issued to responsible organisations free of charge with minimal paperwork. so members have nothing to fear, on the contrary they can relax if they hold an official meet knowing legalities are covered. Parking a safe distance from one another will lessen the chances of accidents involving more than one van and are not a legal requirement but are safe practice. you all have third party insurance so no extra insurance should be necessary. The certificate just makes life easier all round, everything is a plus and no negative aspects. your personal anomnity is safe. "That" post is written by someone who has read up on the subject and is not a member of any brigade. It is made by someone who has had many dealings with authority in his short life, including local ones. You cannot seriously be suggesting that you would get a different reaction from locals if a group of campervans covered by an exemption certificate congregated in a public place than a group without one? The local NIMBY will still be on the phone to the police because he is too frightened to come down and have a friendly chat. OK, the police turn up and you wave your piece of paper at him. All well and good. The police also turn up to the group with no certificate. Result; all smiles and waves, sometimes a chat and a cup of tea (see Firefox's post above)It happens to me all of the time, when I'm parked on my own or within a group. Certificate or no certificate, tis the same happy ending.....so a waste of time getting one, with the added risk of busybodies poking their unwanted noses into the business of this forum now or in the future.
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Post by wildman on May 29, 2013 9:50:14 GMT
Sorry to have to correct you again, the rally exemption certificate only applies to rallies held on PRIVATE land with the land owners permission. there is no right to park on the highway though many do. Wilding in Scotland of course is different to England anyway. It would appear you need to read some more and find out exactly what a rally exemption cetificate is before you condone it. As to relevent knowledge and experience I have been involved in motorhoming, camping and planninng application/laws and regulations annually since the 1960's and speak from first hand experience not something I have misread somewhere. I can see this thread getting argumentative rather than a discussion so will again refrain from posting further on this subject. I have no wish to upset anyone I do however often feel the need to put the record straight when people who wish to live outside of the box misquote or misunderstand what they are trying to talk about. Vernon as to 3 vans see below, I cannot find the relevent legislation but just to confirm I have not made it up it is refered to . www.pitchup.com/how-start-campsite-caravan-park/It's generally a criminal offence to operate a campsite or caravan site without a licence, if one is required. (ergo a gathering of more than three vans on private land without a licence is illegal.) Exemptions No licence is required if the units are being used in connection with the owner's dwelling, for building or agricultural purposes, for stationing of a caravan for not more than two nights (as long as caravans had not been present for more than 28 days during the previous year), or for stationing up to three caravans on a plot of five acres or more. Travelling showman and sites owned by the local authority also do not require a licence. OK found it www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Eliz2/8-9/62Use of holdings of five acres or more in certain circumstancesE+W+S 3(1)Subject to the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule, a site licence shall not be required for the use as a caravan site of land which comprises, together with any adjoining land which is in the same occupation and has not been built on, not less than five acres—E+W+S. (a)if in the period of twelve months ending with the day on which the land is used as a caravan site the number of days on which a caravan was stationed anywhere on that land or on the said adjoining land for the purposes of human habitation did not exceed twenty-eight, and. (b)if in the said period of twelve months not more than three caravans were so stationed at any one time..
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Post by Firefox on May 29, 2013 10:55:07 GMT
Excellent. Thanks for that. Criminal justice act says 5 for unplanned intrusions on private land causing a nuisance. This act mentions 3 for planned intrusions, and I think this is a civil matter between the site owner and planning/council. Wilding in Scotland for motorhomes is no different to England. The law for tents is different, but in practice, a blind eye is turned to motorhomes. We bring money and custom to rural areas and we like blind eyes
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Post by kangooroo on May 29, 2013 12:06:38 GMT
This post, and you have every right to make it is typical of the object to anything even if you have no idea what it is all about brigade. The rally exemption certificate is issued by Natural England to overcome the need to apply to local government for planning consent every time more than three vans congregate (more than three vans without a licence is an unlawful assembly), it goes a little way towards redressing the total ban imposed by the law following the hippy convoy days to protect land owners rights. By parking up for any length of time without the appropriate permissions you just get peoples backs up even if they can do nowt about it. Far better for everyone to be happy and unconcerned. Far better to think of those who follow you and the poor sod who pulls up the minute you leave and gets it in the neck 5 mins later. The certificate is issued to responsible organisations free of charge with minimal paperwork. so members have nothing to fear, on the contrary they can relax if they hold an official meet knowing legalities are covered. Parking a safe distance from one another will lessen the chances of accidents involving more than one van and are not a legal requirement but are safe practice. you all have third party insurance so no extra insurance should be necessary. The certificate just makes life easier all round, everything is a plus and no negative aspects. your personal anomnity is safe. "That" post is written by someone who has read up on the subject and is not a member of any brigade. It is made by someone who has had many dealings with authority in his short life, including local ones. You cannot seriously be suggesting that you would get a different reaction from locals if a group of campervans covered by an exemption certificate congregated in a public place than a group without one? The local NIMBY will still be on the phone to the police because he is too frightened to come down and have a friendly chat. OK, the police turn up and you wave your piece of paper at him. All well and good. The police also turn up to the group with no certificate. Result; all smiles and waves, sometimes a chat and a cup of tea (see Firefox's post above)It happens to me all of the time, when I'm parked on my own or within a group. Certificate or no certificate, tis the same happy ending.....so a waste of time getting one, with the added risk of busybodies poking their unwanted noses into the business of this forum now or in the future. Very simply, I understood the Certificate would give you the right to park in places not normally available. Thinking locally, this would mean on our local river meadows where camping groups display such a certificate and attract no public concern.
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Post by wildman on May 29, 2013 17:48:48 GMT
Assuming the local river meadows are privately owned and the land owner gives permission then yes The rally exemption certificate exempts you from planning permission for rallies it does not grant consent to be on public or private sites, that must be pre arranged with the landowner. So 1 consent of land owner, 2 Exemption to bypass planning permission, 3 Said rally to be listed on the forum in advance to comply with the definition of Rally.
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Post by Firefox on May 29, 2013 17:59:52 GMT
Assuming the local river meadows are privately owned and the land owner gives permission then yes The rally exemption certificate exempts you from planning permission for rallies it does not grant consent to be on public or private sites, that must be pre arranged with the landowner. So 1 consent of land owner, 2 Exemption to bypass planning permission, 3 Said rally to be listed on the forum in advance to comply with the definition of Rally. How many 5 day rallies per year could we have on our private woodland without breaking the rules... this exemption certificate looks to be very useful if we go for cat 4,5, and 6!
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Post by kangooroo on May 29, 2013 18:31:39 GMT
Assuming the local river meadows are privately owned and the land owner gives permission then yes The rally exemption certificate exempts you from planning permission for rallies it does not grant consent to be on public or private sites, that must be pre arranged with the landowner. So 1 consent of land owner, 2 Exemption to bypass planning permission, 3 Said rally to be listed on the forum in advance to comply with the definition of Rally. Yes, this is the case ie privately owned land with permission from the landowner, and there's a single EHU point and a water supply for the campers to use. Our house overlooks the meadows so we have a clear view. Several rallies are held there by various groups throughout the year, including a forum group ande they're usually their for 2-4 nights at a time but probably not for more than 28 days pa (I haven't counted!). The certificate is displayed at the entrance so anyone passing by knows who they are, that they're licenced and there's a contact point. I'd never paid much attention to it until this issue arose here.
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Post by wildman on May 29, 2013 20:31:58 GMT
Assuming the local river meadows are privately owned and the land owner gives permission then yes The rally exemption certificate exempts you from planning permission for rallies it does not grant consent to be on public or private sites, that must be pre arranged with the landowner. So 1 consent of land owner, 2 Exemption to bypass planning permission, 3 Said rally to be listed on the forum in advance to comply with the definition of Rally. How many 5 day rallies per year could we have on our private woodland without breaking the rules... this exemption certificate looks to be very useful if we go for cat 4,5, and 6! There is no limit to the number of rallies Vernon as long as they are not concurrent. However if you get the paragraph 5 you can licence the site as a 5 van CL, then any members would be able to stay there as long as no single member exceeds 28 days in one stay. For larger numbers you can use your rally exemption but it should be in a separate area to the CL. Though who checks apart from the local health inspector I have no idea. Depends on someone complaining I'd guess.
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Post by Firefox on Jun 2, 2013 10:58:28 GMT
The consensus seems to be in favour so we'll go ahead for paragraphs 4,5, and 6.
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Post by robmac on Jun 2, 2013 11:54:41 GMT
The consensus seems to be in favour so we'll go ahead for paragraphs 4,5, and 6. I'll do the paperwork tomorrow Vernon. (drinking today!). Can we get a code of conduct in place? There is a model on the natural England website which we can use as a template.
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Post by Firefox on Jun 2, 2013 13:43:33 GMT
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Post by robmac on Jun 2, 2013 18:39:56 GMT
Thank you.
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Post by Firefox on Jun 10, 2013 10:36:01 GMT
The application has now been made by Rob for paragraphs 4,5 and 6 plus camping.
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Post by billieblue on Jun 10, 2013 11:03:23 GMT
Ooooooh crikey, we've gone all legal!
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